Yahoo25Any more sources on the total costs?
They have not put the value on it. It involves components made in India, Germany and Malaysia.
Yahoo25So in total its 900mn for the 18 aircraft + 145mn + 20mn for the avionics=1.065bn which equals to approx 59.1mn for the aircraft.
You forget the valuse of 6 contacts. The total is $1.4B as mentioned in my earlier post.
Yahoo25Ok, corrected. I must’ve missed to convert from AUS to USD.
Ok, I will correct that too.
Actually, I gotta dig up the deal because it was much more for the MG and PG or whatever. I remember having the price but I never put it into the list.
Actually, it was 900mn for 18 planes + 2 more contracts. Can you list the prices of those two.
Also, the Su-35 was offered to Brazil for some 35mn, it is unsure how many aircraft Brazil will want.
Ok, thanks I will correct it.
Ok guys, I think we’ll need many more adjustments. I have edited the front page.
Defence: News
AvionicsKuala Lumpur eyes Su-30 support contracts.
Craig Hoyle
240 words
20 April 2004
Flight International
24Thales is negotiating offset contracts with Malaysian companies Sapura and Zetro Aerospace to support its integration of Western avionics with Malaysia’s new fleet of 18 Sukhoi Su-30MKM fighters, which were acquired last year.
Sapura, which specialises in communications and simulation, says it is seeking to help during the development of communications and optronics systems for the aircraft. Zetro, which maintains avionics for most Malaysian military aircraft, expects to expand into avionics integration under a technology transfer agreement with Thales.
Zetro also hopes to lead future avionics work on the Su-30 and secure a contract for maintenance services and potentially optronics equipment.
Malaysia last December awarded Thales a 550 million ringgit ($145 million) contract to install Western avionics on its Su-30s, with this including a 30% offset requirement. The French company says its first prototype will be completed within the next 18-24 months.
South Africa’s Aviatronics has, meanwhile, received the first part of a $20 million contract to supply a multisensor warning system for the Su-30MKM. The electronic warfare self-protection system will for the first time provide Malaysian aircraft with a missile and laser warning capability.
The contract with Aviatronics is the last of eight government furnished equipment deals awarded by Malaysia to support its Su-30s. Other suppliers include Goodrich (lights), Rohde & Schwarz (communications equipment) and Sagem (inertial control systems).
There are not two extra contacts but 8 in total. Only Thales and Avitronics value is given. So total untill this point is $1.15B. My earlier post is correct that total will come to around for $1.4B.
Yahoo25THat RMAF Flanker is $75M aircraft with total systems. IAF deal for 40 Su-30 was signed in 1996 dollar for $1.8B(Not including foreign components). You cannot compare it with 2003 Malaysian deal. A Single MKI will be $80M per aircraft in todays prices. Also Brazil Su-35 is 12 aircraft for $760M. So it is around $70M. It is cheaper because it doesnot involve foreign components.
MALAYSIA: A mid-2003 $RM5.4 billion ($1.42 billion) RMAF contract for 18 advanced two-seat multi-role Sukhoi Su-30MKMs is now known to include funding of 120 million ($143.56 million) for advanced digital mission
systems avionics from France’s Thales group. The RMAF’s Su-30MKMs will be similar to India’s Su-30MKIs now arriving from Russia’s Irkut group, with canards, thrust-vectored Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans and NIIP N-011M Bars radar. RMAF westernized mission systems avionics from Thales and SAGEM, however, will exclude Israeli Su-30MKI components in Su-30MKM and weapons package deliveries, due from 2006.
The RMAF will oversee integration of the aircraft and systems in Russia, which will be completed in partnership between Sukhoi and Thales. Equipped with modern European avionics, these aircraft will enhance the RMAF’s already substantial combat aircraft fleet, from delivery by 2007 to 2008, while strengthening Thales’ links with its Malaysian industrial partners. Thales claims that its systems will boost the capacity and operational performances of the SU 30MKMs, notably in the domains of avionics, navigation, identification and optronics, and enhance their capabilities for both day and night combat
Yahoo25Phazotrons new topdog radar is the phased array Sokol, not Zhuk-MSE
which is the end of that line. Tikhomirov is working on the Bars successor named Irbis which they say will hold the fort until arrival of AESA radar.India can go for the Irbis front end or the AESA when it comes. the back end architecture could remain the same.
Again it not about Phased array or AESA. It is about actual performance. Latest RDY-2 and APG-68 Slot array have similar performance(actually better in some modes) as much larger Phased array BARS.
Yahoo25> I didnt mentioned pods as part of differentiating aircrafts.
that will be the big diff between the first gen sapsan pod and the
third gen pods to be used in MKI and MKM. Just because you
dont like to mention it matters not. russia is only now starting work on paveway type kits. israel/france have far more mature
eqpt there. India rejected the russian jammers for israeli ones
not for fun, but for good reason.canads and TVC – they are necessary to manouver such a heavy
a/c tightly. everyone and his uncle are adding TVC for a good reason. the Typhoon wants it, F22 has it. almost every moden a/c including gripen, rafale, typhoon, j-10 has canards. there is no long operational exp with how much addl cost burden if any they impose so you are talking out of ur bias as usual !other than the SAR mode, the figures of the Zhuk-MSE look
inferior to Bars. http://www.kanwa.com/free/2003/10/e1027a.htmI will let other people debate the finer details.
I have read your link. It just show that BARS is better in Air to air(By just 20KM, MK2, MK3 elevation angle is better) but the others are better in Air to Surface role. Again this is not a comparision between Slot array versus Phased array but comparision of actual performance.
Regarding TVC. Flankers do not have the TWR of F-22, Rafale, EF or J-10.
Russians have first solved the TWR issue with AL-31F-M1 engine (13.3 to 15 ton class) and has lower weight by 2 tons as compared to Su-30. This alone gives huge advantage.
Check the MAKS 2003 site TVC and canards adds 1100 kg weight with same thrust so where is the bias?
Yahoo25the Su27SM has a improved N-001V radar not Bars. It has a russian glass cockpit not a western equipped one.
the malaysian MKM, the MKI and MKK2-3 will remain the best of
the in-service Flankers for a while. no canards and TVC either.Its a MLU. they got rid of the old soviet style cockpit which is a
major good step.But all the flanker still suffer from same lack of cheap, short range
PGMs and high quality lasing pod the western a/c have.Litening on MKI and perhaps Damocles on MKM will again be
the leading edge on flankers when they are introduced. israel has a contract
to integrate litening and their LGB kits into MKI.
So what is the advantage of BARS over other ZHUK series radars? I didont mentioned pods as part of differentiating aircrafts. I mentioned Engine thrust, Radar, Fibre optics, active Jammers(built on power PC) integrated into the body.
canards and TVC add 1200KG weight and lower the operational life.
Russian Flankers are lighter by as much as 3000KG and have new AL-31FM-1 engine. Radar performs all the functions which the rest of Flankers can do.
Yahoo25There is no such thing as the MKK2 or the MKK3. There’s the Su-30MK2 if you are implying that. Keep a lot of salt handy when visiting the photoshop forum.
There is Su-30MK3.
Defence: News
development vladimir karnozov / moscowNew Su-30MK3 flight testedSukhoi scheduled to deliver aircraft to Chinese naval aviation units from next year.
Craig Hoyle
179 words
1 June 2004
Flight International
15
English
Sukhoi has completed an initial series of flight tests of its advanced Su-30MK3 multirole fighter, which is scheduled for delivery to the Chinese navy’s aviation units from next year.A further development of the Su-30MK2 first delivered to China earlier this year, the new aircraft has a maximum take-off weight of 38,000kg (83,800lb), and a maximum weapons load of 8,000kg. The aircraft will carry Raduga Kh-59ME subsonic and Zvezda-Strela Kh-31A supersonic anti-ship missiles. The navy has so far ordered 24 of the fighters, and is expected to announce follow-on orders.
The Su-30MK3 uses Phazotron-NIIR’s Zhuk-MSE multimode radar, which the company says can detect a fighter aircraft target at a maximum range of 200km (108nm), track 10 targets and engage four simultaneously. A radar-equipped aircraft has so far conducted 13 test flights with the Zhuk-MSE sensor, it says
316 words
17 May 2004
07:52
BBC Monitoring Former Soviet Union
EnglishText of report in English by Russian news agency Interfax-AVN web site
Moscow, 17 May: First flight tests of the Zhuk-MSE onboard radar have been performed successfully aboard the Su-30MK3 plane, Constructor-General of the Fazotron-NIIR Corporation Vladimir Frantsev said on Monday [17 May]. “Thirteen flights have been performed in the framework of the Zhuk-MSE radar test programme. Results of the flights have effectively confirmed all basic specifications of the onboard radar in the air-to-air and air-to-surface modes,” Frantsev told Interfax-Military News Agency.
During the tests in the air-to-air mode, the radar registered Su-27/Su-30-type targets at a distance of 200 km in the front hemisphere, while the planned result was at 180 km, and at a distance of 80 km in the rear hemisphere, which is a very high result.
Real resolution of up to 10 m was achieved for the first time in Russia when the radar’s capability to detect surface targets was tested, Frantsev said. According to him, a new variety of the Zhuk-MSE has been designed for installation in a variety of the Su-30 Flanker fighter. The Zhuk-MSE X-wave radar is fitted with a slot array 960 mm in diameter. It has 16 lettered frequencies, its gain is 37 dB. Deviation angles are +/-85 degrees (azimuth) and +60/-40 degrees (inclination). Scan zones are +/-10 degrees, +/-30 degrees, and +/-60 degrees. The radar has three receivers, and its transmitter has an impulse capacity of 6 kW and average capacity of 1.5 kW. The number of tracked targets is 10, and the number of attacked targets is four to six.
Yahoo25And??? Your point being?? How about like telling the Russian Air force that the Su-30 MKI is more advanced than the versions they have in service?
Actually it is a incorrect statement to make. F-16Blk 60 is really advanced than the most advanced F-16 in USAF. F-16Blk60 offers Greater thrust(non-afterburning thrust is way ahead), Radar (almost 3 times detection range of latest USAF F-16), Greater Maximum takeoff weight, weopon load, Fibre optics systems etc.
While AL-31FP does not produce more thrust than AL-31FM-1 with Su-27 upgrade nor MKI radar produces 3 times detection range(infact incertain ground modes it is inferior to latest Zhuks). MKI payload and MTOW is also not greater than other MK versions.
I am not even comparing Su-35UB with greater fuel and AL-37 engines.
Russian air force to upgrade Soviet-era fighters, part of first major military modernization since Soviet collapse
By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV
Associated Press Writer
587 words
26 December 2003
06:32
Associated Press Newswires
MOSCOW (AP) – Russia’s aging fighter jets will be fitted with new engines and electronics as part of the most ambitious military modernization plan since the 1991 Soviet collapse intended to strengthen the armed forces’ sagging might, officials said Friday.The first batch of five upgraded Su-27SM fighters flew Friday from the aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in the Far East to the air force’s Lipetsk combat training center in western Russia for evaluation and tests.
Russian TV showed the sleek, twin-engine blue-and-grey fighters landing at a snowy airfield and enthusiastic pilots hailing their performance.
“They still smell of fresh paint. They are like factory-fresh cars,” a smiling squadron leader, Yuri Gritsenko, told NTV television.
Maj. Gen. Alexander Kharchevsky, Lipetsk commander, said the upgraded fighter “features the latest achievements in electronics, weapons and navigation.” The planes have computer displays instead of analog gauges, a satellite-guided navigation system and sophisticated weapons control systems.
While the original Su-27 was designed as a fighter, its upgraded version can also be used as a ground attack aircraft, Kharchevsky said in televised remarks.
President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly promised to increase funds for combat training and modernize military arsenals.
Next year will see the most ambitious weapons modernization program since the Soviet collapse. The government plans to spend 341.2 billion rubles (US$11.7 billion), or about 14 percent of the 2004 federal budget, on modernizing fighters, upgrading strategic bombers and buying new helicopter gunships, missiles and other weapons.
Ivan Safranchuk, head of the Moscow office of the Center for Defense Information, a Washington-based think-tank, said fitting old Soviet weapons with modern electronics was the cheapest way to upgrade Russia’s aging arsenal.
“The military has a lot of hardware that can remain in service for a long time,” Safranchuk said in a telephone interview. “Modernizing it by inserting new software appears to be the most cost-efficient way.”
Lt. Gen. Alexander Zelin, air force deputy chief, said the program to overhaul Russia’s fleet of Su-27s will be completed in 2005, the Interfax-Military News Agency reported. Zelin wouldn’t say how many of the several hundred Su-27 fighters in service would be converted to the new standard.
Zelin said the plane’s new version has better capabilities than the Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI — the advanced versions of the Su-27 sold to China and India in recent years.“We can’t have aircraft in our inventory that would be worse than those sold to foreign customers,” Zelin said.
The Su-27, built as an answer to the U.S. F-15 Eagle fighter, entered the Soviet arsenal during the 1980s. The Russian air force has bought just a handful of new jets since the Soviet collapse, and had lacked funds for modernizing Soviet-built aircraft.
Russian air force pilots have complained bitterly that their aircraft were falling apart while Russia’s aircraft builders were producing new jets for China, India and other foreign customers.
Increasing wear-and-tear on Russian air force planes and lack of pilot training have contributed to an increasing number of crashes of combat aircraft in recent years. Because of fuel shortages, Russian pilots fly an average of only some 20 hours a year compared to a minimum of 200 hours in western air forces.
UPDATED SU-27 WARPLANES TO BOOST FLYING UNITS’ COMBATIVITY.
226 words
26 December 2003
RIA Novosty
EnglishLIPETSK, DECEMBER 26. /RIA NOVOSTI / — The Lipetsk (regional centre in the Central federal district) is adopting for service five updated warplanes Su-27. On Friday they will fly here from the aircraft-making works in Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Russia’s Far Eastern region.
The arrival of the modernised Su-27SM machines will boost the combat strength of the Russian air force, said Lieutenant-General Alexander Zelin, chief of aviation of the Russian Air Force-deputy AF Commander-in-Chief.
“The fighting capacity of these machines has greatly increased. Now the plane has a new quality: becoming multipurpose, it has new armaments and can handle new missions”, he said.
To Zelin, the updated So-27SM embodies all the know-how designed into the export versions of the Su-30MKI and Su-30MKK models. “We certainly should not have in service warplanes worse than we supply to the foreign market”, Alexander Zelin explained.The planes entering the inventories of the Russian air force can be updated further on and on, he said.
Zelin stressed that the modernized Su-27SM “is actually a new plane”, whose onboard equipment and armament, as well as airframe, have been thoroughly modified. In addition, the aircraft makes in possible without appreciable technical modifications to have modernized engines, including with a variable thrust vector.
Yahoo25Can Russia provide codes to defeat these missle complexes in times of conflict (to either the US or India)?
It is like saying Can Russia provide the codes to defeat BARS, R-77,R-73 Brahmos. Ofcourse it depends which side can put up more money. 🙂
Yahoo25I got this from CDF Su-30 thread where it is stating S-300PMU-2 version
The relatively high share of air defense systems is attributed to the delivery of an unknown number of S-300 PMU-2 air defense missile systems to China (most likely two systems, valued at up to $200 million). Besides, shipborne air defense systems to be installed on destroyers were also supplied to China. There is known to be a contract for two Rif marine air defense systems, which are likely to be installed on Project 052C low-visibility destroyers (hull numbers 170 and 171). Moreover, pictures of missiles for Shtil systems being loaded on destroyers of the previous 052B Project (hull numbers 168 and 169) have been posted on the Internet
Yahoo251- The M88-3 could be ready soon. About the M88-4 I don’t think it is more than something on the paper, or even in minds, and I’ve never heard of TVC for it.
Anyway how do you want to fit a M88 into a Mirage 2000 not planned for it?
It will be highly customized Mirage specifically made for India.
2- That’s not because a Mirage 2000 has a Rafale nose in order to do some tests for the Rafale developement that Dassault will sell RBE-2 equiped Rafales in the future.
There will be AESA radar for Mirages. After all there are so many in service at some point AESA will be put into it.
3- We can’t change the agility nor the structure of the Mirage 2000. That would be a waste of time, money etc.
Waste of time and money is for IAF not for France. 😉
4- How do you want to fit all the Spectra components (there are quite a bunch) in a little aircraft not planned to include them? (and it’s the same for many other components onboad the Rafale.)
The same way huge components were installed in M2K9 like Side looking radar and that RDY-2 is still at 50% of its capability. Redesign cockpit and nose cannot be ruled out.
Yahoo25The problem that everyone missed is that if the deal of the first article can reach the signature, no one here know the conditions and characteristics.
IF these mirage are mostle built in India, how much will they cost ?
There will be licensing and transfer of technology so system cost will be high. Unit cost will depends on how much composites are used. where engine is built.
So, buy a Rafale, not a mirage.
They cannot buy Rafale because if they buy it than there MKI deal will be called into question.
Or perhaps that India can’t afford to use several hundreds of MKI.
Slow Induction of MKI and LCA has created huge gap interms of numbers both in medium and long term.
Rest assured India has no where to go they will buy Mirages. The only thing interesting is how much advanced M2K they want.
Yahoo25Yahoo,
Mirage 2000-5 is more advance than LCA could ever be. What the hell is M88-4…….I have read about M88-3 but not M88-4 and how the hell will you Indians gonna fit M88-4(your own dream) into a Mirage 2000. Boy you people are really way out of the curve
You are completely out of touch with reality. Why should India pay more for an aircraft which has less range and payload and cost more than MKI and?. The only reason will be that it will be more advance than what India has or will produce. And don’t worry about customization and Indigenization. Just like MKI and -29K comes with TVR and future LCA so TVC for Mirage is must.
M88-4 will alone reduce the weight of Mirage by 500KG and rest will be done by composites.
DUBAI ’95 – SNECMA/S KOREA DISCUSS M88 FOR KTX-II.
345 words
22 November 1995
Flight International
10
English(SNECMA IS PUSHING a derivative of its M88 engine as the powerplant for installation in South Korea’s KTX-II advanced jet trainer/light-fighter project, as well as pursuing an increased power variant for a re-engined version of the French Dassault Mirage 2000.
The M88 is a 50kN dry-80kN with reheat (11,000-18,000lb)-class turbofan whose only application is the Dassault Rafale, but Snecma chairman Bernard Dufour says that it is “just the start of a family of engines”.
The company is already in talks with South Korea to offer the M88-2K, based on a proposed non-afterburning variant of the M88, the 50kN M88-2S.
Alongside projecting a family of “dry” M88s, Snecma is also looking at developing the 110kN M884. This project is at the preliminary design stage, but is aimed at eventually replacing the M53K in the Mirage 2000.
Dufour says that Snecma has begun studies into the eventual re-engineing of the Mirage 2000-5, whose single M53 engine would be replaced by an M88. The company is already looking at uprated versions of the M88 for projected higher-weight versions of the Rafale – the M88-3 with a thrust of 90kN, and the M88-4 with 110kN – and he sees these as being suitable for the Mirage 2000.“I don’t see why the [re-engined] Mirage 2000 should not be in production in ten years’ time – the delta planform still seems to be the best, and there’s nothing very new in airframes,” Dufour says.
The French company has already proposed the engine to Saab as a potential replacement for the Volvo Aero Engines RM-12 (General Electric F-404) in the JAS39 Gripen, but Dufour says that the marketing tie-up between Saab and British Aerospace for the Gripen has “diminished” the chances of such a substitution being made.
He holds out more hope of his company selling the M88 – possibly in a non-afterburning “S” or “dry” form to South Korea
Yahoo25One have to understand simple logic.
Interms of Unit cost and licensing M2K is more expensive than MKI and India is buying an aircraft for 21st century not 20 the century. So it is unlikely that IAF will accept an aircraft which is less sophisticated than MKI and cost more and comes later.
So minimum requirements are
1. New engine either M53PX or M88-4
2. RBE-2 AESA radar so it is more sophisticated than BAR.
3. Aircraft made of composite material for reduce RCS and more agility.
4. Spectra defensive suite.
5. Assure supply of METEOR and MICA IIR and all MBDA PGMs.
6. Aircraft should be more advance(Just imagine more advance than LCA) and a source of technolgy for Indian Indigenous programs.
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