Actually H-4 is I think the Pakistani designation for the T-Darter. It really is NOT indigneous. Does Pakistan really have the tech to push out a BVR missile right now?

Read the key word. Indegenously manufactured not Indigenously designed.

Actually SA has 3 BVR programs, R-Darter, S-darter and SAHV-3(T-Darter).

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/reference/Air-to-Air_Missiles/South%20Africa.htm
AAM ID / Country 32 / South Africa
AAM model SAHV-RS (MRAAM)
Classification Air-to-Air Missile
In service since 2003
Physical data Length Weight Diameter
3.60 m 140 kg 180 mm
Payload Warhead Guidance Fuze
n/k inertial and active radar n/k
Propulsion solid
Status development

you say PAF has acquired the tech. what does it mean ? you gave no evidence that SA has ever tested and done the development lifecycle of the missile….do you mean the PAF will do the test program ? manufacture it in Pak ?

Please search your considerable sources for reports of SA testing the bvr missile…

PAF has been doing testing for MUPSOW, Raptor for long time now but without publicity. So this should be put int the same category .

> proposed

thats the keyword yahoo. your report dates back to 1999 and
some are even earlier in the other thread. where are the reports
of prototype development and test firings ? A typical AAM takes
dozens of test firings from land and air before it enters service.

> “very impressive on paper”.

thats the executive summary unless you provide some contemporary evidence all is fine and dandy.

This is not an FC-1 thread and i have posted the link from Dawn in the other FC-1 thread that PAF has acquired the tech for BVR from official source. That should be enough.

To make it more irrelevant. T-darter derives from S-Darter propulsion and R-Dater seeker technology along with datalink.

341 words
24 February 1999
Flight International

Denel of South Africa is offering Pakistan a package of air-to-air weaponry for its planned Chengdu Super 7 fighter being jointly developed with China. It includes a proposed joint development of a datalink-equipped radar-guided beyond visual range (BVR) missile.

The Pakistan air force confirms it is evaluating a range of active-guided BVR missiles, including the newly proposed T-Darter development by Denel’s Kentron. The air force’s Super 7 chief project director, Air Vice Marshal Hamid Khawaja, describes the South African missile as “very impressive on paper”.

T-Darter is understood to be a further development of Kentron’s radar-equipped R-Darter now in low-rate production and Ramjet-powered S-Darter or LRAAM. The new proposed air-breathing missile would incorporate a datalink for mid-course guidance updates and effective target engagements at ranges in excess of 50km (27nm).

The South African company acknowledges “Kentron has been discussing various proposals for air-to-air missiles with the Pakistan air force. These proposals include the U-Darter and derivatives of the Darter family, such as the fifth generation A-Darter missile, as well as the ramjet technology developed by Denel’s Sochem division.”

But by then India would have a decent aerospace industry ready to chum out the next gen UAVs, the point is, its better to pay in Rupees than in USD, it is hard for India to afford to replace the MiG-21s today however coupled with economics growth and indegenousization, replacements will be faster in the future. This is why the thread title is stupid, of course the LCA makes sense and of course the LCA can be upgraded to face any 4+gen fighters, only the 5th gen fighters will have clear advantages in stealth and so on.
IN other news 253 flights have been completed, so says the ADA site.

First India has to move pass LCA than think about future generations. and i don’t see LCA matching 4+ generation aircraft. it is too small for upgrades (you cannot increase the wing span or put CFT or bigger engine) and too late for practical purposes. It is best 3rd generation airframe mated to 2nd generation Indian avionics so it 2.5 generation aircraft at best.

thanks for the pointer Yahoo.

To further eloborate. Just look at the dates. Around 1993 for F-7 deal and 1995 for Mirage Deal. So it is decade old matter.
Also the range incase of F-5E is 39NM(about 75KM) and incase of Mirage it is 111KM claimed. F-7 range is reduced to 57KM. Tracking ranges will be lower.
Grifo S-7 should be around 130-150KM assuming the big nose size.

The FIAR Grifo Radar

Over the past 20 years airborne fire control radar have become smarter as the advent of
micro processing has improved the speed and capacity of the system to search for, track, and
identify targets. At the same time, the physical size of the hardware has shrunk. Thus, it is possible
for in-service fighter aircraft to be given a state of the art radar system which, in turn, allows the use
of new generations of air to air missiles.
Although FIAR (Fabbrica Italiana Apparecchiatture Radoielettriche) was formed in milan
during 1941, as a manufacturer of electronic equipment for both the commercial and military
markets,
the company’s involvement with radar only began in the early 1960s when it commenced production
of the NASARR F15AM II radar , under license from Autotecnics, for the FIAT build lockheed
F-104G. the F-15AM II is a multi mode radar , optimized for both air to air (target interception)
and air to ground ( navigation and bombing) roles. FIAR currently has a staff of 700 and forms
the airborne radar sector section of the systems and avionics equipment division within Alenia
Difesa. it is the only part of Gruppo finmeccanica to be quoted on the stock exchange.
The FIAR Grifo radar from Italy, The FIAR family of Grifo radar has achieved similar success.
four distinct versions of this radar have been adopted: the Grifo-M, and Grifo-7 for the Mirage
III/V and F-7, respectively, in service with the Pakistan air force, the Grifo-F for Singapore’s F-5E
upgrade (redesigned as F-5S), and the Grifo-L for the Czech republic’s aero vodochody L-159.
Although previously a smaller part of Italian industry, FIAR is now the lead element of GF-Sistemi
Avionici, a finmeccanica company.
Development of the Grifo pulse- doppler, multi-mode radar began in late 1980s, and following
a comprehensive series of flight testing on a company owned T-39 Saberliner test bed, is considered
complete. The four versions share a common architecture and much common hardware and
according to the company, offer feature normally associated highly expensive and complex aircraft.
FIAR entered the market in 1991 with the Grifo, a radar developed with private venture funding
to upgrade Singapore’s F-5Es. it is testament to FIAR’s expertise that it won the competition in
the face of stiff competition from British, Israeli, and American companies. Grifo is a pulse Doppler
multi mode, multi roll radar operating in the X band (I/J band), featuring a planer antenna. with a
performance claimed to be better than the APG-66 radar fitted to the F-16AB. it has five air to air
search modes, with the capability of tracking up to eight targets, four air combat modes and nine air
to surface modes. the last are refined by ground mapping and enhanced Doppler beam sharpening
mapping its range 39 nm, the system weight between 80-85kg (176-187 pound) ( depending on the
antenna), and requires a 2KVA power supply. it is cooled by compressed air and the energy
dissipation is less than 1.5 KW, with 500W transmitter power. the Grifo offers low, medium and
high pulse repetition frequencies (PRFs), uses digital pulse compression and has low peak power.
Extensive use is made of built in test equipment (BITE) for maintenance simplicity and the mean time
before failure (MTBF) is between 200 and 250 hours: a major improvement on older system. For
air to air use, it has range-while- search (normal), range-while-search (adaptive), spot velocity
search, single target track, dual target track, situation awareness, track-while scan, air combat,
boresight acquisition, HUD acquisition, vertical acquisition and slew modes, In air to surface
operation, the Grifo can function in real beam map, Doppler beam sharpening , sea low, sea high,
ground moving target indicator, ground/sea moving target track, air to ground ranging, freeze,
expand and beacon modes, Further modes include raid assessment, terrain avoidance, precision
velocity update, beacon landing (similar to ILS) and IFF.
Grifo can be integrated with semi-active or active radar guided missiles such as
AMRAAM and MICA. and its can be use four type of AAM, During the system’s development
program some 250 flying hours
were accrued in tracor’s North American T-39D S aberliner airborne test bed. in addition, more
than 300 flight trails were conducted with a system mounted in an F-5E.
Deliveries to Singapore of its order for around 50 Grifo-F system, a version optimized
for the F-5E, began in the second half of the 1990s. In 1993 FIAR signed a second prestigious deal, being selected for the modernization program for 95 Pakistani F-7P/MP fighters,The first Grifo
radar was due to be shipped to the air force’s Chaklala site in july 1994 to fitted into MirageIII’s.
This was a much more demanding requirement because of the smaller space available and lack of a
cooling system. To this end simplified version was developed, the Grifo-7, which weight only 55kg
(120 LB) and has 450W power with 850W energy dissipation. The modes available are search,
single target track and air combat (super search, bore sight and vertical) modes for air to air
operations, and air to ground ranging for ground attack.
Two years later, Pakistan again turned to FIAR, this time in support of a
modernization program for its ex-Australian MirageIII Os. The aircraft , being reworked by the
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, needed to be fitted with new avionics, including radar, global
position system (GPS), inertial navigation system (INS), FLIR, upgraded electronic counter
measures (ECM), and ‘ hands on throttle and stick ‘ (HOTAS) controls, The radar selected was the
Grifo-M ( performance as the Grifo model), optimized for the MirageIII airframe, and Pakistan
purchased 35 systems. FIAR’s latest contract was signed in 1997 with Aero Vodochody of the
Czech Republic. This was for 77 Grifo-L radar systems to equip the new L-159 multi role combat
aircraft. FIAR is constantly working on research and development programs that will improve and
develop the capabilities of the entire Grifo family. Continual upgrades of both software and hardware
components, enable the systems to remain state of the art.
The Grifo incorporate full range air to air and air to ground modes. the performance
demonstrated during the Saberliner tests against fighter targets included detection and lock-on
ranges, look-down capability, and air to ground ranging. The company told that these tests
“far exceeded the design objectives” of the radar but declined to be specific literature notes that
the radar is able to detect and track multiple targets ( up to eight) at all aspects and at all altitudes.
The system weight depending on the aircraft platform, “less then 80 kg”.
Integration of a modern radar into new avionics architecture is never as simple as it
appears and it is understood that the Grifo-F for Singapore’s F-5S experienced problems during
integration, though their exact nature has not been revealed. that said, FIAR issued a statement
during the 1996 Farnborough International air show noting that flight trail of the Grifo-7 in a
Pakistani F-7 in airplay 1996, were declared “completely satisfactory’ by the Pakistan Air Force
and ministry of defense. Several sorties were flown ahead of the rainy seasons in order to test the full
operating of the radar in the country’s challenging hot weather conditions. further trails are being
conducted to verify other parameters.
At present, the Grifo’s claimed lower cost and the higher performance are its main selling
points. FIAR states it has “signed order for about 200 Grifo radars’ with options on a further
100. other candidate aircraft for the Grifo are seen as being the A-4 Skyhawk, Mig-21, SUPER-7
and others.
The Super Skyranger is new low cost, multimode radar designed as a replacement for
Skyranger radar. Super Skyranger radar also proposed as retrofit for other “small nosed’ fighters.
The company claims that super skyranger offers full look down/shoot down capability, using a
planner array antenna scanning + 30 digree, depending on the aircraft installation. it can provide
target range, range rate, and line of sight data (such as head- steer data for a slewable short-range
air to air missile) to the aircraft avionics systems. it does this using an ARINC-429 serial link (with
a 1553b option) and possesses what are described as ” excellent ECCM features.

A modern fighter range can have a dozen or more radar modes, each optimized for a
specific task. No standard terminology exists for all modes. In preparing the data table we have
listed
only the most important navattack modes for each set. The most common are as follows:

AIR TO AIR
LOOK-DOWN ; The most common mode used in air combat, this provides clutter free
indication of low flying targets.
LOOK-UP ; If the target is flying at a similar or higher altitude to the fighter, look-up mode will
provide a longer detection range.
Single-target track ; In simpler radars, once a target of interest has been detected, the set can
then be locked onto it, allowing an attack to begin. The radar antenna will remain pointed at the
target, so other targets can only be observed by returning to search mode.
Track-While-Scan (TWS) ; Given enough data processing power, a radar can maintain a track
on several targets while continuing to scan the forward sector. This mode allows several targets to be
engaged simultaneously using fire and forget missiles, and gives enemy pilots no way of knowing that
their aircraft have been single out for attack. Since the radar is still scanning , it may take up to ten
seconds for the radar beam to re-scan each target, so the data processor will take some time to
establish a new track, or respond to a sudden change in target course. this delay can reduced by
using data -adaptive scanning. Also know as track priority. this replaces the conventional sector scan
used in search mode with a series of smaller scan each directed at one of the targets of interest.
Using this technique, tracks can be updated every few seconds.
Range-While-Search(RWS) ; By interleaving high and medium PRF( Pulse Repetition
Frequency) waveforms. a radar operating in this mode can sue the high PRF’s for long range target
detection, and the medium to obtain range information.
Velocity Search ; This uses high PRF’s to carry out a long range search. this gives the longest
possible range against head on targets, but provides velocity and azimuth data only.
Raid assessment ; (sometimes referred to as “situation awareness”) In normal operating modes,
a formation of several closely grouped aircraft may appear as a single target when seen at long
range. Raid assessment mode uses signal processing to resolve the formation into its individual
aircraft.
Air Combat ; (often referred to as “Dogfight mode”) This is a generic term for modes used at
short range when the aircraft and its target are maneuvering in air combat. The scan pattern can
either be fixed, or moved to anticipate target maneuvers. the most common are HUD, bore sight,
and vertical search.
HUD ; (sometimes referred to as “supersearch”) This radar automatically scans the HUD field of
view, and will automatically lock on to the closest target.
Boresight ; The radar beam is pointed directly ahead of the aircraft, and the pilot maneuvers the
aircraft to place the beam onto the aircraft to be tracked. lock on is commanded manually.
Vertical search ; This is particularly useful when both aircraft are maneuvering in the vertical
plane, and involves setting the radar to scan vertically rather than horizontally.
Air to air ranging ; Measures the range to an air target.

AIR TO GROUND

Air to ground ranging ; Used to measure the slant range to a designated point on the ground
during gun or continuously computed point (CCIP) attack.
Real beam ground mapping ; (often referred to simply as ‘ground mapping’) By sweeping the
beam from side by side, the radar creates a radar image of the terrain ahead. this can be used to
locate and attack ground targets, or to update the aircraft’s navigation system.
Sea search ; This mode is optimized for the task of detecting and tracking ship targets. Unlike
the land, the sea surface is itself moving, increasing the problems which the radar will have in
discriminating between the target and its surroundings.
Freeze ; The radar scans to build up an image, which is then electronically stored and presented
on the display, allowing the radar transmitter to be turned off . By computing the aircraft’s
movements, the radar allows the pilot to use the Frozen image for some length of time, before the
transmitter is re-energised to take another radar ‘snapshot’.
Expanded-beam ; This allows the pilot to select a small area of ground mapped terrain, then
magnify its image.
Doppler beam sharpening ; By processing the doppler shift in the returned echo, the radar
creates a high definition view of a small part of the ground mapped terrain. althoug this gives a higher
resolution than Expanded beam mode, it can only be used for targets which are 15* or more the
nose of the aircraft.
Terrain avoidance ; Detects high ground ahead of the aircraft, enabling the pilot to fly around it .
Terrain following ; Flies the aircraft at a pre selected height along the planned route .
MTI (Moving Target Indication) ; By processing the Doppler shift in the echoed from moving
targets on the ground . the radar can separate these from the ground clutter. Quality of MTI data
reduces at high aircraft speeds.

This is an aviation forum, we might as well discuss, now this thread can be used as good propaganda tool and as reference, I bet that the same people will ask the exact same questions in a few weeks and post the same articles. I say bring them on, every time they have tried to create something, they have failed miserably and then they jump to another issue, from nose, they loose, then comes metal, now I do not know what it will be but it just goes to show, changing arguments everyday is a sure sign of defeat and/or ignorance.

No. The same question will be not asked in next few weeks. The same kind of thread will be started some time next year just to see the claims. Further M2K purchase will hasten the start of that thread. So bye bye untill next summer for LCA :p