Its worth mentioning here that the max firing (solution) range of a torpedo has little really to do with the limit of its maximum run. The point of the 650mm torpedo is its chasedown factor….in missile terms it would be termed its ‘no escape zone’. It would not be fired at a target 50km distant unless that target was an oil rig or something else conveniently stationary.
To explain you have to remember that a torpedo doesn’t have a massive overtake performance edge on its target like, for example, an antiship missile does. At 50knts the 650mm weapon only has about 20knts overtake on a ‘standard’ warship (for round figures).
IF the 50km @ 50knts stat was accurate, which I’d doubt, it means that the weapon has a runtime of about 30 minutes at that setting. The weapon has, therefore, got 27 nautical miles to tailchase and catch the target. A 30knt vessel will cover 15nm in 30 minutes, so, the torpedo has to be fired from a position within about 12nm (24k yards) in order to ensure that the target cant turn on a reciprocal bearing from the launch transient and simply outrun the fish!. Remember that this is 24k yds from the target too and, if the target is a HVU like a carrier, there will be an ASW screen several thousand yards radially outfrom the carrier.
Torpedoes aren’t long range weapons – not even the really big ones!.
Hence my question about the chances of hitting at max range. So, in effect, you’ld have to get your big a$$ soviet era design nuclear submarine very close to the carrier group undeteced in order to merely have some chance at catching it with a 650mm fish.
White Sands Testing New Laser Weapon System
Published on ASDNews: Feb 4, 2009(White Sands Missile Range, N.M., January 30, 2009) — White Sands Missile Range is testing a new weapon system known as the Laser Centurion Demonstrator.
The system, developed by Raytheon, combines proven radar and threat-detection technology with the latest in laser weapons. This demonstration model is intended to prove the capabilities and effectiveness of the new laser weapon as part of the Laser Area Defense Systems program, officials said.
The new laser system is designed to replace the 20mm cannon on the Navy’s Phalanx system and the Army’s Centurion system, according to Raytheon’s Web site.
The integration of an advanced directed energy weapon into an existing conventional weapon system helps keep the system’s costs down as well as allowing an easier transition from one system to another, officials said.
The Phalanx is an air and missile-defense system used on nearly every ship in the fleet. Converted to be transported and fired from a trailer, it is also used by the Army under the name Centurion to provide defense from air and missile threats as well as defense against mortar and artillery attacks. As an upgrade to the Phalanx and Centurion, the laser system is a program that is jointly funded by the Navy and Army. Other services are also interested in the laser itself for possible integration into other weapon systems.
“Directed energy is getting more and more prevalent in weapon systems,” said Col. Bruce Lewis, White Sands Test Center commander.
Initial tests with the demonstrator have been positive. The laser has proven capable of rapidly penetrating armor plating even when not at full power, and system setup has been very easy.
“We are excited to be testing system capabilities by shooting down mortar rounds in the coming weeks,” said Sal Rodriguez, senior flight test engineer with the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Port Hueneme Division, Sands Missile Range detachment. Rodriguez also thanked all the members of Team White Sands who have supported the program while it prepares to test the system.
The Laser Centurion will fill the same role as the conventional cannon-equipped version while providing a commander with more options and capabilities, officials said. The laser-based system will still be able to engage targets like mortars, rockets, and missiles, but without the drawbacks of limited ammunition. Also, since the laser does not use any kind of solid shot like the cannon, it can be used to better defend populated areas without the fear of the “20mm shower” that conventional air-defense guns cause when their bullets fall back to earth.
Since it is also able to be used against small surface targets, the laser will be able to be used in peacekeeping and anti-piracy missions without drawing the kind of attention a cannon would.
“At (short range) it’s a nice deterrent, and without the big bang of a gun,” said Lt. Shawn Mitchell, assistant officer in charge of the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Port Hueneme Division’s WSMR detachment.
Unlike previous laser systems of this kind that used chemical reactions to generate the necessary power for the laser, the Laser Centurion uses a solid-state laser that can run off any appropriately powerful source of electricity.
“It’s like the difference between an electric car and a gas-burning car… this is a very green system,” said Dan McMaster, a program manager from Raytheon. This makes the Laser Centurion a very flexible weapon system as it will be able to run off land-based generators and power supplies just as well as it will off of a ship’s reactor.
http://www.asdnews.com/news/19278/White_Sands_Testing_New_Laser_Weapon_System.htm

Raytheon:
http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/technology/rtn10_fas/features/directedeng/
http://raytheon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1600&pagetemplate=release
LADS (20kW) http://www.raytheon.com/newsroom/feature/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms04_025223.pdf
The Laser Area Defense System (LADS) combines the capabilities of the 20-millimeter Phalanx weapon system with the power and effectiveness of lasers to provide fast, precise search, track and engage capabilities for directing laser energy on target, destroying mortars and other munitions in flight.
So, I think it would be 50kW.
The issues quoted(dollar value fluctuation, inflation, poor cost-evaluation) are all significant but I think the core of the problem was that the SevMash shipyard just wasn’t equipped for building aircraft carriers. I read some very informative posts on the subject on some Russian forum which I’ll see if I can find the link for.
Basically SevMash had little experience in building and refitting aircraft carriers(Historically that was done at Nikolyaev in Ukraine). They also lacked much of the infrastructure needed for such a task, including a dry dock capable of berthing carrier-sized vessels.
So they instead drained a lagoon used for floating submarines for testing. Unfortunately the lagoon had no heavy machinery like cranes(That explains why there are hardly any large cranes in pics of the Vikramaditya over the years) available so moving equipment became an expensive and time-consuming process, which was am important reason for the time and cost overruns.
The realisation that SevMash may not capable of reliable aircraft carrier construction is probably the main motivator in Russia seeking to include Ukrainian shipyards for its warship-building plans.
Yes, Sevmash specialized mainly in submarine construction. Indeed, by 1995, Sevmash had constructed 125 submarines and had produced all the Northern Fleet’s SSBNs. ANd this included such small and simple subs as the Typhoon class SSBN, which at 23,200–24,500 t (22,830–24,110 long tons) surfaced displacement and 33,800–48,000 t (33,270–47,240 long tons) submerged displacement and 175 m (574 ft 2 in) x 23 m (75 ft 6 in) x 12 m (39 ft 4 in) is not much less complex than the 45,000 tons full load and 273.1 m x 31.0 m x 8.2 m Gorshkov. Besides, Sevmash is the largest simgle shipbuilding company in Russia, and both Severodvinsk yards (Sevmash and Zvezdochka) are the largest naval yards in all of Russia. There really weren’t any alternatives. The naval yards Sevmash (Severodvinsk), Zvezdochka (Severodvinsk) and Nerpa (Murmansk) are all subordinate to the Ministry of Shipbuilding, whereas the Sevmorput (Murmansk), Shkval (Murmansk) and Safonovo (Murmansk) yards are run by the Northern Fleet and are thereby subject to the Ministry of Defence.
Yep !
and for Frigates
• Hawes: Dec. 10, 2010 — “Will be utilized as a logistic support asset primarily for remaining ships in the FFG 7 class.”This ship is likely expected to be “canibalized” for spart for the others FFG…
euphemisms :rolleyes:
Taiwan most likely. Pakistan’s already buying another Perry class frigate. Together with the F-22Ps it should give them all the defensive firepower they need.
Oh really, which one? McInerney? She will be transferred this August. IIRC Pakistan has officially expressed an interest in no fewer than 6 OHPs to replace her ex-UK Type 21 (and Taiwan later in 8, to replace her ex-US Knoxes). Moreover, on PN fora, the number of 8 has been circulating, which may suggest 2 hulls for spare parts.
Have they opened up the hull in order to install new engines? If not, then this is indicative/relevant too wrt Varyag.
• Jarrett: May 27, 2011 — Set aside for foreign military sale.
• Doyle: July 29, 2011 — Set aside for foreign military sale.
Expect these to go to Pakistan and, if not, then to Taiwan.
The old Rif-M has its capability greatly limited by having only one rotating illuminator(so no 360 deg coverage, can handle only six targets within area of coverage) and that hasn’t been rectified here. And the Frigat MAE-3/4K are dated compared to current Western phased array AEGIS-type radars. That’s why the Russian Navy will probably go for a new design with the new Poliment-K radar and navalized S-400 supposedly under development.
Please look a the grey HSH liine drawing closely : there is no more Tombstone above the bridge and there is a new mast for the Fregat 3 in which phased array radars are embedded. So, already there are variations. Or at least in drawings (it may just be someone has grafted the main mast of the Project 22350 onto this model 😉
that reminds me has Thailand ever used its AV-8A which it got from spain as that’s an example of a Navy trying to use second hand harriers.
Possible but with the harrier poor safety record(which is hardly likely improve with cannibalized old airframes with a new user unfamiliarity with the aircraft’s quirks) their must be a large desire to get into the fixed wing aviation but with limited funds to be unable to afford any other options
Never said it was an *ideal* solution. Besides, an Invincible class ship with just helicopters might make a usefull platform for smaller navies, for ASW, antishipping, as well as anti-piracy and anti-terrorism tasks.
Surely that’s why carriers have escorts – to keep hostile submarines as far away as possible?
What I meant was: which subs actually have 650mm torps and to the extent they might be considered belonging to a hostile navy, how likely are these types of subs to get within launching range, given carrier group ASW potential. And even then, if you managed it, how likely are you to get a hit if you fired at max range?
They will be just as worn out as the GR.9/9A’s.
Yeah, but if cheap and plentyfull, that could be an option (just vet the airframes and cannibalized the remainder as needed). And available via US foreign military aid (makes a big difference for some countries).
Chilie
GDP: $161 Billion USDPeru
GDP: $126 Billion USDPakistan
GDP: $166 Billion USD
Remembering what money they have goes mainly on their army and Airforce.How are these nations, which are badly in need of upgrading their airforces, which are still operating Naval ships from the 1960’s and 1970’s going to be able to afford to Run an invincible class aircraft carrier and the aircraft (helicopters) they require?
Beg pardon?
Chile has replaced ALL its 6 major surface combattants (2 Leanders + 4 County’s) with the afore mentioned 8 Type-22 en -23, L- and M-frigates. Respectively, these date from
Type 22: 1988
Type 23: 1984, 1986 and 1992
L-class: both 1986
M-class: 1991 and 1993.
The Peruvian Lupo’s were commissioned, respectively, 1979, 1979, 1984 and 1987. The four Lupos acquired more recently from Italy are from 1977 through 1980.
While the current PN ships are Type 21s and date from 1974-1977, these are currently in the process of being replaced by 4+ new built F22P and 1+ used FFG7 Perry class ships. A country like Pakistan gets such deals such as the McInerney (FFG8 OHP frigate) for just USD 65 million. McInerney commissioned 1979. Additional ships of this class that PN might receive all date from 1982 or later. They might get a deal like that from UK and some military aid to run it, if the US and UK find that is in their interest.
This might also apply for Taiwan, which is seeking used FFG7s to replace the 8 Knoxes it still operates. If acquired, these too would date post 1982. The next oldest in Taiwanese service are 4 Kidd DDGs dating from 1981 onward. The 8 locally built OHPs are from 1993 onward and the 6 La Fayettes are from 1996 onwards.
Note that e.g. the Turkish navy also still operates 1 Knox class ship (5 others recently retired) even as it is operating new Meko 200s and used OHPs and beginning to build its own ships domestically. Likewise, Spain only very recently (2004-2006) decommed the similar Baleares class. So, the fact that a navy today still operates 1970-era ships doesn’t say that much. Besides, while e.g. Thailand ordered 4 new ships from China in 1990, one cannot say these ships are better than e.g. the Type 21s operated by Pakistan or the Lupo’s operated by the Peruvian navy.
March 1973 in Peruvian service… she was laid down September 5, 1939, launched December 19, 1941, and (after being suspended during the rest of WW2, then re-designed), completed November 18, 1953, serving in the Royal Netherlands Navy until her sale to Peru.
yea yea yea (you’re talking to a Dutchman). First entered RNthN service in 1953.
Description: The Project 21956 multi-purpose destroyer represents the fourth generation of Russian surface fighting ships developed by the Severnoye Design Bureau. The launch of this 9,000-ton class destroyer was announced in December 2007. The ship is designed to engage surface combatants and submarines, support anti-submarine and air defense missions in blue waters and sea areas in surface groups and task forces. The destroyer is also capable of providing fire support on-shore during amphibious assaults. Overall, the Project 21956 is the Russian counterpart to the US Navy’s proven DDG 51 Arleigh A. Burke class destroyer but featuring lethal technologies such as supersonic anti-ship missiles. It is build around extensive stealth technology reducing the ship’s radar cross section (RCS) for enhanced survivability against hostile radar detection and attacks by advanced anti-ship missiles. Project 21956 also features an integrated combat management system operating as a network for higher degree of survivability. It seems aimed primarily at the export market for emerging Navies such as those of China and India.
The Project 21956’s M96 two-shaft main gas-turbine assembly with power output of 54,420 KW (74,000 hp) propulsion system consists of two D090 cruise gas turbine engines developing 10,650 KW (14,500 hp) each and two DT-59 boost gas turbine engines developing 16,560 KW (22,500 hp) each. Besides, four diesel generators provide an power output of 1,250 KW each. The propulsion system allows a top speed of 29.5 knots and an economical speed of 18 knots with a maximum range of 5,800 nautical miles. The ship’s stability allows to operate the armament and machinery at up to sea state 5 levels. It also features an aft flight deck and hangar for two Ka-28/Ka-31 helicopters to support anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and anti-surface warfare (ASuW) missions. The sensor suite of Project 21956 destroyer includes Fregat MAE-3 and Fregat MAE-4K multifunction air surveillance radars, Mineral-ME surface search radar, Zarya-ME-03 hull-mounted sonar system, Vinyetka-EM towed sonar array, TK-25E electronic countermeasure system and KT-308-5 passive jamming system.
The ship’s air defense weapon systems include: one AK-130 130mm twin-barrel multi-purpose gun with 5P-10-02E fire control radar and a maximum range of 23 kilometers; Rif-M extended range air defense system with 3Ts-48E control system and six 3S-48E launchers at bow deck, each launcher has eight 48N6E2 missiles or four 9M96 missiles replacing each 48N6E2 missile; and Kashtan-M short-range air defense system with 3R86-ME command module, 3R87-1E combat module and eight 9M311-1 missiles as well as 30mm rounds. The anti-ship and anti-submarine weapon systems are located at the aft deck. ASW weapons include: 3Ts-14E launchers with 91RTE2 anti-submarine rockets; and TPU/4 missile-torpedo launchers for 91RE1 anti-submarine rocket or torpedoes of UGST or UETT type. ASuW weapons consist of the Kalibr-NKE weapon systems which comprises the 3R-14N fire control system, 3S-14E launchers and up to 16 3M54TE subsonic cruise missiles, 3M54E supersonic cruise missiles or 91RTE2 rockets carrying an anti-ship torpedo. The 3M54TE/3M54E missiles are intended to engage either surface ships or targets onshore at ranges of 220 kilometers. Nevertheless, the weapon system may include tailored weapon systems according to customer requirements such as BrahMos supersonic missile and/or BrahMos 2 hypersonic missile replacing Club-N missile system.
From Deagel.com
I think the highlighted country would be just about the last country that the UK would sell a flattop to.
What could the Argentinians do with a flattop without any SHARs or GR9s? Fly Skyhawks of the skyjump?