AntiqueRoadshowGot your book Atcham Tower, the website (or researcher) really did quote directly didn’t they? I presume that the researcher wasn’t you?
AR
AntiqueRoadshowThanks for that Atcham Tower
Interesting that whoever transcribed your work missed one of the locations (at Buckenham). I’ve plotted them all on Google Earth but it does not reveal anything, other that four of them are very close together halfway between Norwich and Great Yarmouth.
Your hint about HO and Norfolk Constabulary files prompted me to look on the PRO’s website to see if there was anything else there that I should aim to look at when I go to the PRO and I found the following from the 11th May 1940, though possibly only co-incidence that it is one day after the report that you quote, anyway, from the online catalogue card for CAB 65/7/12…
1. Situation Reports – Removal of Holland’s gold; Dutch Shipping; Operations in Norway; Royal Marine Operations.
2. The Netherlands – Asylum for the ex-Kaiser.
3. British Expeditionary Force – Proposed move of the first armoured division to France.
4. Invasion of Great Britain – Arming of police; Internment of enemy aliens in the eastern counties.
5. The Netherlands – Protection of oil refineries at Aruba and Curaçoa.
6. Air Action – Anticipated bombing attacks on towns on the north and north-east coast.
7. Sweden – Position following invasion of the Low Countries.
8. Next Meeting.
CAB 65/7/23 Might also be interesting because it may well reflect the paranoia about the fifth column that was going on at the time, and it is only from a few days later, having said that nearly all the cabinet papers have an index item about Aliens, Internment or the Fifth Column after that.
Can’t find any Police records with the PRO, it would appear that the Norfolk Records Office have the only Police records (C/PO 1/17-59 – Police division records 1839-1965) that are available so a trip to Norwich might have to be in the offing as well!
AR
AntiqueRoadshowThanks for that Atcham Tower. Is your book still available? Can you recall exactly what it says in Air 2/4557? I am planning a trip to the PRO to have a look at it sometime in the fairly near future.
AR
AntiqueRoadshowA common misunderstanding. Should there be no evidence either way, something probably did not happen; the likelihood is of a non-event. Things that happen leave evidence. If there is no evidence to date that these fields existed, apart from hearsay, then the probability is they didn’t. I have 999.999 chances of being right, you have a statistical zero. Place your bets, ladies and gentlemen.
Agree totally with that JDK. If there is no evidence at all then I agree that in all probablility there is nothing to it.
Tried to order the ref from the PRO but it’s too fragile for them to scan and e-mail so I have asked for a quote for a copy which I will balance against a visit to Kew as there are some other things that I would like to look at. I’ll report back to this thread when I’ve read it, probably in a month or so – not going to be the quick turn round that I hoped for.
AR
AntiqueRoadshowI think that it is time for a recap as we are all in danger of being lost in the weeds here…
1. There is an article on the web that SUGGESTS that there MIGHT have been some German landing grounds in Norfolk in the UK
2. The article does not mention the PUB, ANTARCTICA, YELLOW SQUADRONS or the MOON.
3. The article does not mention that these landing grounds were to be used in support of a direct invasion or battle.
4. The article does not speculate to the existance of any infrastructure at these landing grounds other than large barns and wide open fields, which in fairness is a little more than that which the RAF and the Resistance had in France when operating Lysanders and Dakotas in support of the French Resistance (and before anyone jumps on this I am not postulating that there was a German equivalent of the French Resistance operating in East Anglia).
5. The article does mention a reference AIR 2/4557 at the PRO and I have ordered this to see what it contains which I will try to present to this thread in as unbiased a way as possible.
6. There is supporting evidence regarding the paranoia regarding crop marks etc in a chapter about the fifth column in R.V. Jones “Most Secret War”. In the same Chapter R.V. Jones describes the fifth column as non existant which is a statement that is supportive of the point of view of JDK et. al.
In one of his latter postings JDK suggeests that someone should suggest why the Germans would want airfields in Norfolk, I will not do this but I will attempt to suggest a logical reason why they might want landing grounds there, distinguishing that a landing ground is substantially less of an undertaking to create than an airfield (take me to task if you like over definitions – in my mind, in this case Landing Ground = Large field and a shed, a couple of marker lamps and a couple of fifth columnists, no more. An airfield I would define as much more, i.e. it would be grassed, there would be parking areas, a fence, guards, workshops etc).
1. The areas in question reference the original web link are remote and well away from areas of major population, thus it would be easier to operate (I use this in the loosest sense, I don’t suggest that more than a very few flights to or from each location).
2. Uses could include dropping off and recovery agents for very limited surveillance operations of genuine RAF and military installations in East Anglia or to travel elsewhere by rail, though in support of JDK et. al. here it seems to have been remarkably successful if that were the case in that none of these agents were caught (or if they were caught it remains a secret – and what on earth could be the reason?).
3. There might be reasons why Norfolk would be a good bet, as I think MIZPAH surmised, there might have been small local populations of continental immigrants that might or might not have been interned at that time, this could have provided some cover for what might would have to have been a very limited night time only operation.
4. Norfolk was in the front line of the air defence of the much of the industrial midlands and was home to growing numbers of airfields. Although aerial reconnaissance would have provided much information it has its failings at the detail level of number of aircraft vs. number of decoys etc. In fairness again though humint has it’s limitations too.
Again, having read all the material through and all the posts here, I have seen nothing that proves or disproves either case. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence in either case. It is worth remembering that there are occaisionally still revelations about World War One and World War Two, even today.
I hope that this thread can debate the (admittedly very limited) evidence that there is without resorting to trying to wrap this up in a load of conspiracy theory stuff about the moon and antarctica and without making open or guarded insults about East Anglians, the Dutch or the Germans.
I intend to read the AIR 2/4557 reference, contact the researcher who did the original work, visit the sites and hopefully seek some local opinion from people of the right age. I will try to report all this back to this thread, hopefully we will be able to find out the truth either way.
Proof that the landing grounds existed would, to me consist of any combination of the following: A wartime photograph that shows a recognisable location in the right context, a report from an official source that reveals their existance, a german aviatior or report about the locations, a statement from a german that went there, a statement from someone that was responsible for the investigation and or obstruction of the sites.
Proof that they did not exist would be a report to the contrary, evidence from members of the farm company that proves that it was all completely innocent. Obvious impediments at the sites, i.e. war time powerlines, wartime ditches, etc.
Though I fear that this will invoke a whirlwind, I’d like to hear what you all have to say!
AR
AntiqueRoadshowJust because East Anglia is further from the continent than Kent does not really rule anything out, by 1940 plenty of aircraft were based in East Anglia that regularly attacked targets on the continent, they didn’t all need to be based in Kent to reduce the range required. The Fiesler Storch had the range (circa 239 miles) to get to East Anglia from plenty of bits of the occupied low countries as did the Junkers 52/3m.
To counter the argument that Hitler was not interested in Britain before the war, I think that you will find that the Luftwaffe carried out at least one electronic warfare ferret flight up and down the East Coast with the Graf Zeppelin to determine our capability with radar (the flight was a failure – see the excellent “Instruments of Darkness” by Alfred Price). In addition lots of the Luftwaffe target photos predate the war, though I realise that these could probably have been purchased on the open market.
I’m not saying that I believe or don’t believe the secret landing ground story, however attempts to disprove it should be based on logical argument. I’ve not heard anything yet which is impossible, or even that improbable. Perhaps we have to accept that we might NEVER KNOW.
AntiqueRoadshow
AntiqueRoadshowI don’t know what I think about it now, a quick google around the web confirms that the characters in the original web reference are genuine enough so why would they lie about it? There were enough real things going on in WW2 to spin a yarn around without putting a spin on the content of Biggles books. In addition the RAF regularly flew onto the continent so why should we not expect the converse also to be true or at least attempted? There would have been very good reasons for keeping the discovery and obstruction secret from the local population I guess. Does anyone actually know what the “obscure reference” is in AIR 2/4557, it might be more revealing in full I guess.
Also this link http://www.geocities.com/eighthafhs/ suggests that the Germans were not averse to building the odd secret airstrip here and there.
I think that on balance I’d be inclined to believe it until I’ve at least read AIR 2/4557 and been to look at a couple of these sites.
Mizpah, do you have any photos of these farm sheds? I was looking on http://maps.google.co.uk satellite views, there appear to be some pretty wide open spaces near some of those villages where fields have been opened up, can’t figure out which buildings would be the ones mentioned in the article.
Is Huby Fairhead still around?
AntiqueRoadshow
Sign In
