Hm…ok but the survival of these small companies seems to be a waste of money . Anyway I believe the market is , when there are no maket failure , the best one to promote development . Embraer’s case was a state born one that was succesful but how much state driven one wasnt? The majority . So this high possibility of failure makes me look negatively to state intervention . But as Embraer case is a success now and as you said they depend of the spatial program then it seems fair enough keep the program .

F-5M, these small companies are not only important to Brazilian aeronautics industries, but also strategical. They are major Embraer’s suppliers of thousands of pieces that makes them viable. Embraer is not exactly a aircraft producer; it is more like an assembler. I’d say something like 80% of the parts used in an Embraer jet is produced by its suppliers.

The HTA consortium has just signed a first contract with EADS-CASA and in a near future they will be probably sign a contract with Airbus and there is also an agreement with Elbit that is very close of being signed.

The news presented below may be valious to one that still didn’t get my point. Sorry about the several translation mistakes but I had to use Babelfish translator once I don’t have much time now to spend on it.

————————————————————

Consortium gains contracts in the exterior

Sales to European EADS/CASA generates USS 90 million in ten years

Virginia Silveira

Sao Jose dos Campos (SP), 16 of August of 2004 – Suppliers of usinadas parts and solutions of engineering for the Embraer, they now conquer international partners in the programs of commercial compensation firmed by the government. The eleven companies which integrate HTA consortium – High Technology Aeronautics, suppliers of the aeronautical sector, wait the unfoldings of the programs of offset (commercial compensation) of the Brazilian Armed Forces to grow the presence of its products in the external market. The first contract of closed exportation for the HTA with European trust EADS-CASA is resulted of an agreement of offset negotiated between the company and the Aeronautics.

The EADS-CASA was selected by the Brazilian Air Force (BAF) in two contracts evaluated in USS 596 million: the modernization of the eight airplanes of maritime patrol P-3 Orion and supply of 12 military cargo planes C-295 for missions in the Amazônia. “Exactly without having initiated the production of the airplanes for FAB, the EADS/CASA already contracted us to produce parts for 14 military cargo planes, produced in Spain”, says the director of the HTA, Urban Cícero de Fleury Araújo.

The contract with the EADS/CASA, according to Araújo, starts to be placed in practical from 2005 and will have a duration of ten years. The value, esteem in USS 30 million, will be divided enters the 11 integrant companies of the trust. The companies go to supply usinadas parts, services of engineering, materials composites, treatment of surfaces, plate conformation and assembly of subgroups.

Generation of jobs

“Beyond the qualification in new technologies, this contract also goes to generate 300 jobs indirect right-handers and and an additional invoicing of the order of USS 90 million in ten years”, according to managing of the HTA. The diversification of customers and more concrete chances of penetration in the European market also are pointed as fringe benefits of the contract with the EADS/CASA.

Another possibility of exportation that already is being negotiated for the HTA is with the Israeli company Elbit, partner of the Embraer in the production of aircraft ALX (Supertucano) and in the modernization of the AMX and the F-5 of the BAF.

“It stows in Israel in May to close the details of the supply of a first lot. In June the Israelis had visited our companies for an inspection in the manufacture processes.”

The contract with the Elbit, according to Araújo, foresees the supply of an initial lot of ten parts, that will serve to characterize the products and to credenciar definitive the companies of the trust as supplying. The HTA goes to produce the parts structural where the equipment avionics of the Elbit is mounted. The value of the contract, according to Araújo, is esteem in USS 500 a thousand.

As part of the program of offset waked up with the Aeronautics, the Elbit is producing most of the equipment in Brazil, in the company Aeroeletrônica gaucho, acquired for the Israeli group in 2002.

According to information of the Aeronautics, the agreement of closed offset with the Elbit compels the company to invest 100% of the value of the contract that closed with the BAF. In the program of modernization of hunting F-5, for example, evaluated in USS 285 million, the Elbit has guaranteed USS 140 million.

The purchase of the new Brazilian presidential airplane, Airbus ACJ, in the value of USS 56,7, millions also is another contract that includes clauses of commercial compensation, industrial and technological (offset). according to managing of the HTA, the offset of the Brazilian ACJ already defined a list of companies who will be benefited. Between them, Embraer and one of its suppliers, the Sobraer company, who produces in Brazil structural parts of the airplanes.

“we are arguing with group EADS, that is owner of 80% of the Airbus, of that it forms the companies of the HTA also will be able to participate of this offset, producing parts direct for the ACJ, through the Sobraer or Embraer”, it affirms the executive. The modernization of the A-4 airplanes of the Navy and the purchase of the new supersonic huntings of the BAF also are projects that the HTA has expectation to participate.

“The consortium was enclosed in the proposals of offset elaborated by the five companies who participate of the competition of the huntings. All they in had visited “, said them Araújo.

The competition for the supply of 12 huntings, in the value of USS 700 million, is disputed by companies of France, United States, Sweden and Russia.

The growing of the productive chain of the Brazilian aerospace industries also counts on the support of the BNDES (Brazilian Development Bank) that it intends specifically to launch one industrial politics of incentives for the sector.

The order of the BNDES, the State University of Campinas (Unicamp) and the Seade Foundation are developing a study that will go to evaluate the possibilities of increase of the national content of the airplanes produced for the Embraer.

Beyond the local production of aeronautical components, the government also wants to stimulate the development of partnerships of the great suppliers of the Embraer with the small business companies of the sector, who can be subcontratadas for the production of parts and parts of the airplanes in Brazil.

Investment of R$ 3 million

16 of August of 2004 – the consortium of companies HTA – High Tecnology Aeronautics were formed have four years with the support of the Agency of Promotion to the Exportation (Apex), that it invested to R$ 1,5 million in the project, exactly value applied for the trust. The objective, according to managing Urban Cícero de Fleury Araújo, is to raise the technological level of the products supplied for the companies and to open the doors the external market. “the eleven companies also see in the exportation a form to today diminish the dependence of contracts with the Embraer, responsible for 80% of the prescription.”

At the time of the attempted against ones of 11 of September of 2001, in New York, these suppliers sufficiently had been impactadas, therefore the orders of the Embraer had had superior reduction of 60%. Some companies of the sector, according to executive, had not supported the crash and had closed the doors.

With the growth of the market of regional airplanes of small transport, the Embraer started to receive more orders and the expectation for this year is of that an increase of the order of 60% in the number of deliveries occurs.

“the world-wide market of aeropartes (parts for airplanes) more than puts into motion USS 33 billion per year. The impact for our businesses will be enormous if we will have, at least, half percent of this volume in next the ten years “, affirms.

The companies of the HTA, according to Araújo, had invested to R$ 1,5 million in the project of the trust, money applied in the accomplishment of missions techniques, participation in fairs and international congresses of the aerospace sector and adaptation of the processes to the norms of quality ISO-9000.

“Today we have conditions to offer our products with the quality, the cost and the stated period that the external market demands.

50% greater invoicing

In the passed year, the companies who integrate trust HTA had had a joint invoicing of R$ 20 million. The expectation for this year is of a 50% growth, arriving at the mark of R$ 30 million.

“This result has to see with the increase of the deliveries of aircraft for the Embraer and with the introduction in the market of a bigger spurt, Embraer 170, for 70 passengers.” Until the passed year, the companies of the HTA alone supplied parts the spurts of 37 the 50 passengers.

The eleven companies of the HTA use 850 employees today in Are Jose of the Fields. The Urban director Araújo is one of the entrepreneurs of the trust, owner of company SPU Parts. Araújo worked eight years in the Embraer in the area of manufacture of usinadas parts. “I left in the cut that the Embraer made in 1992 and decided to mount the company, therefore it knew well this type of activity.”

The HTA more than supplies 700 a thousand aeronautical parts the Embraer, what it enabled the companies to work with some types of complex materials, as steel, aluminum alloys carbon, stainless steel, inconel (it binds for high temperatures), titanium, materials composites, among others raw materials

Source: http://www.defesanet.com.br/fx/gm16ago04/

Regards,
Primer

F5M, the development of these technologies demand high investiments which would be prohibited to many Brazilian industries (including Embraer). Also remember that Embraer isn’t the only Brazilian company in aerospace area; smaller industries as those that compose the HTA (High Technology Aeronautics) consortium would never have acess to these technologies and, probably, would be cursed to close its doors in a few years due to the high competitive market we have these days in the aeronautics bussiness.

Regards,
Primer

I bet the MFT-LF is pretty much alive, in the AMX. Probably designed by the same people, this aircraft probably gave the Brazilians the basis for the AMX.

Not exactly. The AMX project started in 1983 and, therefore, the AMX was the basis for the MFT-LF.

Regards,
Primer

I know the discussion is over but I forgot to mention this:

Brazilian Air Force would never send Super Tucanos against a SAM-protected target; it is for these cases that we have A-1’s (AMX).

Regards,
Primer

All tail codes has been removed from AF combat fleet.

Not exactly. What was removed was Air Base designation (now you can’t say for sure – unless you have a good database -, for example, if a given F-5E is based in Canoas or in Rio de Janeiro).

Anyway, I still have no idea what the tail codes for this 3 AT-29’s will be.

Also I was wondering, how survivable would the Super Tucano be against some MANPADS lets say that the drug dealers might have? It sure is pretty slow.

First of all even drug dealers from Colombia (which are much better equippied and trained than ours) have MANPAD’s.

But even if they did I think they would face some difficulties trying to engage a Super Tucano given its low heat signature (remember: it’s a turboprop-powered plane) and its low altitude flight profile.

Regards,
Primer

PhantomII, this isn’t the only forum crowed by “Flanker nuts”…

I still consider JAS-39 Gripen because of the following reasons:

– it is the most advanced fighter
– best development potential
– cheap to maintain
– it is powered by a engine based in a General Eletric’s model and GE already has a maintanance facility located in Brazil
– it is already compatible with weapons from several different countries which represents a wide range of choice.
– it isn’t such a “boring” plane like Mirage 2000 or F-16

But, anyway, let’s wait a bit more.

Regards,
Primer

Originally posted by Malandro
Well the indigenous Piranha is much more advanced than the Aim 9M . Its seeker uses the same technology of the AIM 9X or the MICA IR ( making it virtually immune to flares ) 🙂

Any comment about the MAA-1’s seeker’s capabilities is doubtful once this missile has never been tested against a ‘real’ drone deploying flares.

The onlu fully thrustful information are the ones which are presented in Mectron’s webpage. PS.: Mectron is the industry responsable for the project of this missile.

http://www.mectron.com.br/maa_ft.html (in Portuguese)

General Characteristics:
– IR Passive guidance
– Controled by dynamic frontal fins
– Passive rolling control

Guidance and Control Section:
– Modified Proportional Guidance Type
– Pneumatic actuators for Pilotage (?)
– Passive rolling control thru rollerons
– Onboard Computer with Built-in-Test
– Capacity of descriminate false targets*
– Seeker’s sweeping speed: 35º/s

G limit: 50G’s

Physical Characteristics:
– Mass: 89 kg
– Length: 2750 mm
– Diameter: 152 mm
– Spread: 660 mm

* : This doesnt mean it is “virtually immune to flares”

Regards,
Primer/Slip