shalavI’d let you in on a little secret… But you have to learn to figure it out for yourself. Ssssh!
Oh, I’ve figured it out, but your (supposed) sarcasm spoke the truth or something close to it. Dassault needs to fix how it does things, or it could loose the sale.
shalavto RKumar
How does it matter what foreigners commentate on India’s space program? We are attempting to go to Mars, they are watching from the ground and conducting gutter inspections!
shalavCool š – Now if only Dassault would also correct its attitude, they would get somewhere!
Good luck to them – I really want to see the Rafale in IAF colours.
shalavActually I did. Here is all they have to say about French support during the Kargil war
from The Hindu
…Going to war with minimal war reserves, field level commanders at that time, who are now general rank officers, recall how the IAF’s Mirage fighters blasted bunkers in seemingly impregnable positions…
From IndiaStrategy
France has quietly suspended delivery of previously contracted military hardware supplies to Pakistan
Nothing in either link about France continuing to supply lethal weapons while the war was ongoing. Whatever little help France provided is genuinely appreciated and the French are always thanked for it. But it still does not say France ignored the EU policy of not supplying lethal weapons to warring parties and supplied lethal weapons to India.
I think you should re-read and understand the wordings more completely my friend.
The competent guys chose the Rafale, but they are presently not choosing to give Dassault whatever price it wants. Part of the reason is supply un-reliability. You can choose to ignore this but this is the fact.
shalavOnce the Election Commission declares election dates, the Model Code of Conduct comes into force. Which means no foreign deals, no yearly budget, only carry over budget till new Parliament session.
There is very narrow window to get this done this year. With a new government, there would be more delays, while the whole deal is re-evaluated from the financial perspective, and it could just be downgraded in urgency on other political priorities which demand money.
shalavall your links show that Pakistani issues – not relevant to this. There is nothing in those links about France SUPPLYING lethal weapons while the war was ongoing.
The reality is quite the opposite to what you believe, while France did not advertise the fact, it too sanctioned lethal weapon supply for the duration of the war as per EU policies. At-least it did not size Indian Naval Sea Kings to make the US happy!
But at the end of the day “all” it allowed and provided help with was source-code modifications to the M2K. This was a small and significant gesture, but it IS NOT supply of ethal weapons to India for the duration of the war. There is a big difference between the two actions.
In return India does appreciate and tries to accommodate Dassault, but not so much that it will open the safe and let Dassault take whatever money it wants, at the terms Dassault demands. Rumours insist the Rafale got some “wink and nod” breaks during the testing phase by individual flight and ground staff involved in the testing. The IAF genuinely likes the Rafale, just not the price Dassault demanded for it. If they are reasonable they will get a long term customer, if not, there is a new govt on the way, the deal could be delayed for another year.
Who knows? If France really been had been a good supplier and actually supplied lethal weapons during the Kargil war instead of just the source codes, Dassault would not be having this hard a time!
All I am saying is, in an “either/or” choice the PAK-FA is a better choice. You don’t like that, but the facts are facts, France’s reliability in weapon re-supply is as suspect as the rest of the EU as experienced by India.
shalavš
shalavWow! So in your head, you are spinning this as Dassault messing up and India sitting on a pile of cash waiting to buy? Despite statements claiming no cash from
1) Prime Minister of India
2) Defence Minister of India
3) Every major newspaper of IndiaGood luck with that….
Didn’t say they messed up, but if India doesn’t have the money maybe Dassault should withdraw from the negotiations. Everyone says India doesn’t have the money including all the politicians and the negotiators from the Indian side. There is no point in continuing if India does not have the money does it?
shalavPAK-FA even lessā¦
Why, are you an expert who has actual experience between what India and Russia negotiate?
Only that it’s made to do exactly what you, time and time again, desperately try to deny: penetrate any defenses its user needs to go through..
On the other side, your blind faith in a type that has yet to be finished, and then profoundly modified to expect to do at least a part of missions the one you’re buying brings to the table today is just stupefying …
I have faith the Rafale is liable to sanctioned when it comes to re-supply in times of war. It has already been done before when France DID NOT re-supply lethal weapons due to EU directives during the Kargil war. Paying 20 b, and then being left high and dry by your supplier when you need them the most ,is the reason I prefer the PAK-FA.
Itās as simple as that. You are making this as if it is a biased choice by me – Itās simply an evaluation of past EU / US practices and Russian supply reliability in times of war. Thatās all.
shalavthat works for anybody… including Russia
Hasnāt for the last 50 years, so there is better understanding there.
favors? pressure? what did you smoke, to post that? they were at war with a country lead by a dictator that was going to die, the pressure they put on them are in the form of AASMs falling on SAM sites, among other things
Really, have you been reduced to personal insults now? The Libyan AD environment is nowhere near what India will have to face. So citing the Rafaleās success in Libya holds no meaning
Sorry, but your argument goes against you: towards India, it is Dassault that is THE proven vendor
Like I said, Dassault has not proven to reliable yet – in the Kargil war France DID NOT supply munitions and spare parts per EU policies. They allowed modifications to the M2K and provided source codes.
People mistakenly equate reliably supplying lethal weapons in times to war with providing source codes. This myth has been exploited by Dassault. These are not in the same category. Hope you understand that.
not Russians which you had to struggle with to get what you paid for
Like the MKI, the Akula SSN, help with the reactor designs for the Arihant, a genuine 5th gen aircraft at a reasonable price. For a little heartburn, most people would take that over spending 20 b and finding out your seller has had an attack of morality in the middle of a war, and will not re-supply those modern lethal weapons you are running out of.
Tell that to Serbs, Russia was “their greatest ally”, their “brothers”, not just some “vendor”, yet, when NATO decided to bomb them, Russia was nowhere to be found, except for a few voluntary boots on the ground
Yeltsinās gone – Putinās here, didnāt effect us anyhow. But EU sanctions already have directly effected us. I suppose Iāll take the real EU sanctions over you ātelling it to the Serbsā as an example of how we can expect to be treated by the EU / US w.r.t. supply in times of war.
Nice try, but your answer is beside the point and wrong at the same time, first, what Rafale’s major role underlines is that it is designed to be able to face pretty much anything you’ll find as air defense, regardless what country you put in front of it.
Your jumping around like this is not making sense. What is your point? That the Rafale is invincible?
shalavDear God…
All those articles in Air International, Flight, Air et Cosmos,etc, that iĀ“ve read across the eighties and the nineties quoting chaps from Dassault offering to sell to India severall batches of Mirage 2000Ā“s (sending the “dash-5” prototype to every IAF “picnic” for years) and then offering the entire production line were my imagination?
I expect you are probably hazy on the timeline. The M2K’s were purchased in the 80’s. There was no offer to sell the M2K line in 80’s – there were some half hearted negotiations for more aircraft which amounted to nothing because of the price.
IAF specifically requested more new build M2K AFTER the Kargil war. The quote was too expensive, they got into round and counter-round of bargaining. Then Dassault overreached and said M2K would be shut down, so buy Rafale or buy the line.
India did not want an overpriced, already amortized production line of a 3rd gen aircraft. They said Rafale is better option – Dassault thought this to mean they had a deal. BUT the procedures meant Rafale lost the M2K sale and was obliged to enter the Rafale into the MMRCA competition.
Basing judgement on Dassault PR to western aviation mags who had no contact with IAF or MoD officials is hardly the correct way to form an unbiased opinion.
There I hope you are clear on the timeline now?
shalavExactly, people just can’t accept other people’s PoV. I think the PAK-FA is a better choice in an either/or situation and I explained my reasons why. Suddenly there is a deluge of people with various reasons from misconceptions of M2K production lines being sold to India, to the Rafale being sold as a nuclear bomber aircraft to India. That idea is so ridiculous, the only other think I could think of is the Tu22 M3.
Glad you got the point. š
shalavEr, if Tata motors open a shop in the US, the shop is US baseds, does that mean Tata motors can’t sell cars in India anymore? stop that nonsense please, you’re just getting more ridiculous… MBDA is a europeans company that opened a site in the US to sell in the US more easily. India is purchasing from Europe, meaning, the US can’t do anything about it
They can choose to sell to US or India – if the US decides on any āsanctionsā, they simply canāt sell to both.
So when the rest of the coalition sat down waiting for cruise missiles to clean things a bit and the French were the only ones to go downtown (et even turning down the US proposition for help with some Growlers doing their stuff to weaken Libyan defenses), what does that mean to you? The others are cowards? Or maybe the French had something the others did not?
Who knows what pressures were put on whom and what favors were traded? All I know is the Libyan AD environment is hardly an example of modern AD environments India is likely to face.
well, let’s see, russian engines, with previous aircraft you had problems having them on time… other spare parts, you had trouble having them on time. French aircraft, you always had everything as soon as needed, but you consider the French as unreliable… yeah, right… PAK-FA’s engines are a future project (so you can’t even be sure they’ll work or have any sort of valuable reliability), electronics you have no idea what they will or will not be able to do, attack capabilities you have no idea whether they’ll be there or not, but “it’s better”…
No doubt about all of that regarding M2Kās, and acknowledged by all. OTOH we had no idea of what the AL31 would be or how the electronics and the MKI would turn out in 1995 either when the deal was signed. But the bespoke modifications did turn out great in the end, and AT HALF THE COST OF THE RAFALE. A proven vendor with no sanctions baggage and a product which is a generation ahead of the Rafale, is a better spend in an either/or situation.
But in either/or scenario, why pay more when there is a danger of your āfriendsā abandoning you for their morality or, whatever else takes their fancy. In all its wars only 2 countries have shown to be dependent, and one of them was not so dependable in 1962, but after that it has been steady rock. 50 years of dependability counts for something.
In the end, in case you missed it, the Rafale was made to carry nuclear weapons deep inside enemy territory (when they started that enemy was obviously USSR, now Russia), meaning, it was made to go against the most potent defenses on this planet for the next 40 years, defenses that even India won’t ever face in real war… If you find a single aircraft made to go in a more dangerous environment than that, I’ll be glad to see it
The nuclear bomber aircraft is not so important to Indiaās needs because there are other alternatives. If as you say it is important, then India also has the option for the Tu22 M3. But all that is moot.
India is pariah in NPT terms, we didnāt sign the treaty and France politically cannot sell us the Rafale as a nuclear bomber. Lets just keep the irrelevant discussions out of it, thank you very much.
shalavI don’t think so, Dassault is the seller, and no subcontractor has the power to delay the negotiations, and no subcontractor has an exclusive contract on fiddling this or that part of the aircraft… Dassault has all the know how and can train any Indian subcontractor as they see fit
Apparently, what they see as “fit” is not acceptable to the buyer. They will have to do better than that.
shalavYou still need money, no matter what plane you decide to buy, and there seems to be none in the pot…
PM hints at trimming defence budget, says need to ‘cut our coat according to our cloth’
Guess that means Dassault are taking their toys and going home then? Wait… no, that’s not what’s happening in real life is it? š
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