Snow MonkeyHas addition of canards on Indian Su-30 MKI brought any improvement in combat aerodynamics/cruise aerodynamics of it? Anybody?
wrong thread, buddy.
Snow MonkeyHmm… MAYBE, MadRat, but even if there are rational reasons to lease QE/PoW (in lieu of refurbing a CVN), I don’t really see it happening. If the entire USN was using PoW sized carriers, nuclear or not, it WOULD really save them alot in manning, but leasing one PoW doesn’t really accomplish much more than point out their crappy situation. I don’t think the US is that charitable to see the value to their ally as a prime motivator (in an otherwise neutral or marginally positive, but not enough to justify on it’s own, situation).
Not being ‘locked into STOVL’ is what it is all about. Besides E-2/future AWACS, jets like Rafale and even F-35 will eventually be replaced within the lifetime of this carrier design, and STOVL vs. CATOBAR also impacts other platforms, e.g. UCAVs, so going STOVL means cooperative developments with CATOBAR users like France (and USN) would be more difficult/expensive to accomodate both approaches. That is reason enough to go with CATOBAR even if it is marginally MORE expensive than STOVL. Also, STOVL may need less pilot training than CATOBAR, but I doubt there is much difference when rolling recovery technique is used, as was planned by the RN to increase bring-back weight.
Snow MonkeyExactly. This is a bunch of corrupt sheiks who have a hugely inflated view of themselves because of their wealth.
They never pursued any ‘normal’ process by which anything but Rafale was even properly considered, to begin with,
yet they insist on playing these games of bow to the sheikh, because that’s how the run everything anyways.
But if they pay up in the end, Dassault is happy enough.
Snow MonkeyNow, in an extraordinary volte-face, the Ministry of Defence says the “cats and flaps” planes may well be cheaper but it would be too expensive to redesign a carrier – more than £1bn – to accommodate them.
WELLL…
Besides the already mentioned fact that this whole story comes down to spin from some Labour MP,
if you take it at face value, I would say that leveraging further cooperation with France, e.g. them buying into a shared program (as planned) would enable savings from a larger scale program… i.e BAE/Thales would be willing to re-write the contract if offered the carrot of extending the contract to another 1/2 ships (for France).
But like I said, it basically comes down to spin from some Labour MP.
Anyhow, the whole rationale of CATOBAR is not really about direct cost savings IMHO, CATOBAR pilot training as well as other crew training is a signifigant cost, not to mention EMALS development costs… But it enables long-term parallelism with France re: a host of other platforms, e.g. AWACS, ASW, airships, which having a STOVL force just doesn’t enable to the same degree, in other words the total force cost effectiveness looking at both UK and FR.
Snow Monkey@ppp: It seems clear that Corran’s only objection to discussing countries’ finances is if that discussion is irrelevant to the thread topic… His specific response to the ‘money the UK sends to Poland’ was not an out of hand dismissal, but a questioning of the validity of the claims you were putting forward… On one hand, it’s worthwhile to pursue that line of debate, but on the whole I don’t think it adds much to the thread or forum, so perhaps better to look up the information he recommended and pursue that discussion by private message with him.
Thanks, an Aviation Fan.
Snow MonkeyAustralia wants SEA-1000 to transit out to the Blue water of the Pacific at a reasonable pace then conduct a long patrol. It might well be Diesels with big fuel tanks and a snorkel are the best solution for this. AIP on an Australian submarine might well be only used when operating close into a target to avoid having to go shallow and running up her diesels to charge the batteries. The Japanese Soryu class apparently use AIP to extend endurance but is it enough for Australian needs.
I have wondered whether DCNS’ concept of ‘high speed on surface, slower below’ is appropriate here… Possibly upgraded to have better underwater performance than DCNS’ concept. I also wonder why no ships/operating concepts have developed to allow diesel/AIP subs to refuel while at sea?
Snow MonkeyI revise my call to India’s AMCA… Although who knows, if it ends up as a JV with somebody else, they should credit as well…???
Snow MonkeyEurope including France…
I don’t know if Russia and China should really be counted yet, esp. China unless black paint counts for more than I think.
Korea has backed off trying for a stealth internal payload aircraft, but since internal payload isn’t really a new thing per se, you can count their Super Rafale project as 5th Gen if you want to…
I am unsure of future Euro developments, the scope for a low/single and heavy/twin engine programs, both of which France could participate in, if not lead both. Such planes would probably be at least 5.5 gen if not 6th…
Snow MonkeyAlot of what’s important is software and the communication/control chain, that’s where Telemos can lead into Son-of-Taranis-and-Neuron IMHO. I see the likelyhood of other partners as very high for both, where is the funding for other programs of similar scope? Instead of EADS’ stupid posturing over MALE uav, putting forward concepts in other niches seems much more productive… airship/blimps, agusta’s ba609 design perhaps even scaled down for shipborne use, etc… Share subsystem work and why couldn’t UK and FR get on board that?
Snow MonkeyPooling research, or fundamental capability, seems to have been the approach of Thales-EADS’ GaA AESA foundry…
OneComplexWeapon MBDA re-organization between France and UK, and France’s push for the recently consolidated Thales/Safran IR programmes to consolidate with both Selex Galileo and Diehl/Rheinmetall’s IR programmes seem to have alot of logic as well. With UK-FR joint development money already dedicated and available to serve as an impetus for industry, that side of the project seems to have good prospects, and Diehl may well see the light if saying no means 90% of the European IR sector will consolidate without it.
Elections are a factor, and buying the Israeli-UK(Thales) Watchkeeper UAV seems the sort of thing that could possibly be questioned… (spending less for Reapers and putting the difference straight back into French UAV research was an alternative) …Big picture-wise though, I don’t see much changing to these plans (with a Socialist government in FR).
There’s definitely more consolidation in the works IMHO, not just UK-FR, but other Finmeccanica units, Diehl, Rheinmetall, Thales, Nexter, Indra…
Snow MonkeyA question has been knocking about my head recently: Does anybody know more details of the DIRCM JV with Indra?
Does that form the basis of the DIRCM system planned for PAK-FA?
Snow Monkeywow… i had seen rafale as the most likely winner all along, but having all uncertainties collapse into a final win is definitely still dramatic. once the ink is dry, this certainly should let Dassault improve their offers to UAE & Brasil enough to convert both of those prospects… not to mention possibilities like Kuwait, Qatar, Malaysia (also Su-30 operator like IAF). Switzerland may re-evaluate new offers if the Gripen NG selection irregularities are serious and Dassault could now drop their price more…? (not that the NG isn’t more plane than the Swiss need, but same could be said for Austria/EF)
If Dassault racks up enough succeses, what are the chances of them/Thales buying Saab?
Snow MonkeyI have never seen anything suggesting there was any timeline issue with F136 (besides testbed flights), merely a funding issue…???
I was going on the assumption that Japan will contract for self production that will 2x or 3x the price ANYWAYS,
it is just a question of what things they contract for, and what benefits those things bring with them, substantial or not.
If F136 goes into production, I’d guess that many other countries with workshare in it would be interested in purchasing it,
not to mention the USAF/USN if it is shown to have better lifetime cost/performance than F135.
Covering some development costs of F136 for a potentially better engine that could potentially purchased by all F35 users as well as give Japanese companies more engine development experience seems a potential positive, depending on what Japan is looking for.
Whatever the case with F136, what would they get out of a deal with Pratt is what I’m asking…?
Snow MonkeyIs there any more specific word on what work-share/ToT Japan might get out of this?
I had always seen a Eurofighter+F35 buy as optimal in terms of those things, but I guess that’s not happening…
Has there been any info on engine work? Is Japan already commited to Pratt, or are they open to RR/GE?
RR/GE seem the most desperate, and thus more likely to farm out signifigant work… What can Pratt offer?
Is Japan willing to pursue maximal ToT via RR/GE, or is conforming with current US procurement more important?
(of course, if Japan funds the RR/GE engine, that would supposedly also be an option for future US procurement)
Snow MonkeyYeah, that was hardly a new story to begin with, nobody thinks Rafale is a cheap plane, but neither is Eurofighter which UAE is supposedly threatening to consider purchasing in lieu of Rafale, so it’s not like that story really presents a compelling case that UAE will not purchase Rafale in the end.
One thing I have been thinking of: It has been published that Rafale’s MMRCA bid was factored based on assuming a win in UAE (in terms of recouping costs over X airframes, support, etc). AFAIK it hasn’t been stated anywhere, but I am thinking that Dassault’s offer to UAE so far HASN’T been assuming a win in India.. More than reasonable, since MMRCA is highly competitive while UAE has not had the pretense of running a competitive bid… There is hardly a rationale for Dassault to potentially sign up to a profit-less contract hinging on a MORE competitive tender (MMRCA). That said, if Rafale DOES win MMRCA, that would definitely leave room for Dassault to modify their offer to UAE to match the new economic reality… Which lets them assure that their assumption of a UAE sale is made reality (by lowering the price).
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