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robstitt

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March 10, 2019 at 1:18 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #814737

robstitt
Participant

Ian:

I’ve not watched this yet but it may be of interest, made by ferry pilot Bill VanDerKloot’s son: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/secretsky

Robert:

January 16, 2019 at 9:38 pm in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #824164

robstitt
Participant

Ian:

The pages I have seen for April and May 1941 include:

date, call sign, type and serial, flight crew names and ranks, passenger names, aircraft’s unit or station, time off departure point, arrival time at Gander, destination, time of departure for destination, time of arrival at destination, flight time, signals action taken on arrival or non-arrival and remarks, all hand-written.

Doesn’t get much better than that!

Robert

January 14, 2019 at 12:58 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #824672

robstitt
Participant

Ian:

There is a document called the Gander Watch Log which lists occupants on every flight passing through Gander but unfortunately the period December 1941 to May 1943 is missing.

And there is the Record of External Flights covering May 1943 to Dec 1945.

I’ve not seen any of the latter – the originals of which are held at the provincial archives of Newfoundland and Labrador – but have seen extracts from the Watch Log which I may have access to if we have specific requests.

Robert

January 13, 2019 at 6:24 pm in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #824759

robstitt
Participant

I believe Air-Britain became the custodian of Peter’s research.

January 13, 2019 at 2:48 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #825107

robstitt
Participant

Ian:

Rest of the Peter Berry records for AM259, inter-leafed with your entries in bold with different date format. Again, some return legs are apparently missing:

1943
1943-01-04/05 = Prestwick > Moscow [presumed from the Peter Moss article]
1943-01-10/11 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-01-12/13 = Prestwick > Moscow [date presumed from the following report]
1943-01-14 = slightly damaged taking off at Moscow [did it return to Prestwick anyway? Or at a later date?]
1943-01-24/25 = Prestwick > Moscow [4^th Moscow service]
1943-01-27/28 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-02-17/18 = Prestwick > Moscow [5^th Moscow service]
1943-02-21/22 = Moscow > Prestwick
1943-03-?? = Prestwick >.Moscow? [presumed from the Peter Moss article]
1943-03-04 = Moscow > Prestwick? [presumed from the Peter Moss article]
1943-04-07 = reverted to AM259
April 25 = Dorval-Prestwick
1943-05-15 = damaged at Prestwick
1943-06-10 = regular service to Moscow started with G-AGHG [Peter Moss article] but see Jan ’44 below
1943-06-23 = ret’d to BOAC 23.6.43 [reg’n restored on unknown date]
————— = again used on Russian and special services as G-AGCD

1944
1944-01-03/11 = made special UK > Cairo return flight
1944-01-29/30 = Prestwick > Moscow [northern route]
1944-02-09 = Moscow > Cairo [southern route because of weather]
1944-02-10 = Cairo > Gibraltar [as above]
1944-02-10/11 = Gibraltar > Lyneham ?[as above]
April 12 = Prestwick-Reykjavik
May 3 = Gander-UK
May 8 = UK-Reykjavik
May 16 = UK-Reykjavik
May 27 = Gander-UK
May 29 = UK-Gander
June 10 = Gander-UK
June 13 = UK-Dorval
June 18 = Goose-UK
June 19 = UK-Goose
1944-07-06 = ret’d to RAF as AM259 for 45 Gp Comm Sqn
1944-09-08 = 231 Sqn
1944-12-18 = Prestwick > Lagens – DELETE, TRANSCRIPTION ERROR
December 20 = Prestwick-Lagens
December 25 = Dorval-Prestwick
December 27 = Prestwick-Lagens – very close to next
December 28 = Prestwick-Lagens – very close to previous

Robert

January 6, 2019 at 4:15 pm in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #826557

robstitt
Participant

Ian:

I rechecked the TNA record extracts (compiled by the late Peter Berry, I should add) and they say AM259 flew from Gander to Prestwick for the RFS on July 14, 1942.

Robert

December 19, 2018 at 4:03 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #830155

robstitt
Participant

Ian,

Can transcribe AM259’s flights for 1943 and 1944 if of interest.

Robert

December 18, 2018 at 5:30 pm in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #830196

robstitt
Participant

Ocean Bridge by Carl Christie is an excellent source for anything on Ferry Command, including BOAC’s role, although it doesn’t for the most part get down to the level of individual aircraft.

Below are flight details for AM259 for 1941 and 1942 from TNA records to dovetail with Matt’s history. There are clearly some gaps as the east-west legs don’t always alternate. The only records for AM259 also noted as G-AGCD are for trips to Moscow in October and November 1942.

First, a couple more details from the same records (?/? indicates an overnight crossing):

AM258 arrived at Prestwick [sic] after a May 4/5 crossing with Capt Bennett in command.

AM259 arrived Squires Gate after a March 13/14 crossing with Wg Cdr Waghorn in command – already covered by Matt, I see.

AM259:

1941
May 14: Gander-Squires Gate
October 7/8: Prestwick-Gander

1942
April 18: Prestwick-Gander
April 24: Montreal-Prestwick
April 25: Prestwick-Gander
May 1: Gander-Prestwick
May 2/3: Prestwick-Gander
May 10/11: Prestwick-Montreal
May 16: Gander Prestwick
May 18/19: Prestwick-Gander
May 23/24: Gander-Prestwick
May 25: Prestwick-Gander
June 4/5: Gander-Prestwick
June 8/9: Prestwick-Montreal
June 13/14: Gander-Prestwick
June 22/23: Gander-Prestwick
June 29/30: Gander-Prestwick
July 1 /2: Prestwick-Gander
July 4/5: Gander-Prestwick
July 6/7: Prestwick-Gander
July 14: Gander-Prestwick
August 21: Prestwick-Gander
August 25/26: Gander-Prestwick
September 19/20: Montreal-Prestwick
October 21/22: Prestwick-Moscow/Ramenskoye – noted as AM259/G-AGCD
October 29: Moscow-Prestwick – noted as AM259/G-AGCD
November 22: Prestwick-Moscow/Ramenskoye – noted as AM259/G-AGCD
November 27: Moscow/Ramenskoye-Prestwick – noted as AM259/G-AGCD
December 5: Prestwick-Gander
December 18: Gander-Prestwick

And so on to the last recorded flight…:

December 18, 1944: Prestwick-Lagens

December 15, 2018 at 1:48 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #830832

robstitt
Participant

Dartmouth and Sydney, Nova Scotia, were used for weather diversions by larger aircraft but I don’t know to what degree the forest encroached on either. As you suggest, it’s hard to imagine that many examples being in one place unless it was one of the regularly used bases/destinations.

Robert

December 14, 2018 at 1:42 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #830945

robstitt
Participant

My contact in Newfoundland says:

I would rule Gander out as a location for the photo. The two Ferry Command hangars (which still exist) were of a different shape and style. There were other hangars on the USAAF and RCAF sides of the airfield, but again, I’m not seeing a match, and no treeline ran that close to any of them… I suppose if the a/c got diverted because of wx, for example, it could be another airfield in Atlantic Canada.

Robert

December 7, 2018 at 10:31 pm in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #831950

robstitt
Participant

Thanks, Adrian. So perhaps a later chance gathering of RFS Liberators at Gander. Am going to touch base with a wartime Gander specialist in Newfoundland to get his input.

The ferry flight listing I have refers to AM918 by its Air Ministry serial for its final flight rather than G-AGDR. The compiler is no longer with us so unable to check the exact source at TNA.

Robert

December 7, 2018 at 5:09 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #832296

robstitt
Participant

Adrian:

I may have missed it in this thread but when did the civilian markings come in?

Robert

December 6, 2018 at 5:31 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #832506

robstitt
Participant

Adrian:

There was a three-day period in May 1941 – May 12 to 14 – over which seven Liberators departed Gander for the UK for the first time, AM918 being one of them. It departed on May 13 under the command of Capt Cripps of BOAC

There may have been other brief periods when there were that many RFS Liberators at Gander but this was one for sure.

AM918 made eleven transatlantic crossings and was the first Return Ferry Service Liberator to fly Dorval to Prestwick direct, on December 29-30, 1941.

Robert

November 25, 2018 at 4:40 pm in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #834641

robstitt
Participant

Thanks, Tony. Interesting stuff.

Appears to indicate that AL595 was initially one of those considered taken back – “repossessed” – by the USAAF but subsequently became one of the 89 (139 purchased less 50 taken back) delivered to Britain. This back and forth ‘horsetrading’ as it was referred to by British negotiator AVM John Slessor was not unusual in the early days of America’s involvement in the war.

I think something may be amiss with ‘Total hours 2,764’ – that’s a lot of hours in a four-month period. Perhaps two hundred and something…?

Not an expert but memory tells me training airframes for types like the B-17 and B-24 were marked with large identification numbers like the ’10’ on AL595, so your Albuquerque reference coupled with the high number of flying hours makes sense.

There’s a second unidentifiable LB-30 behind AL595 in the Dorval photo with the same markings and an unreadable numeral on the nose. Both aircraft appear well used. So looks like AL595 was not unique in its activities prior to delivery to the UK.

In my experience with the Fortress, Wayne County was a jumping off point for deliveries of American types to Britain from Dorval.

Have not been able to identify the Liberator III in the other photo mentioned by ‘longshot’.

Robert

November 25, 2018 at 12:57 am in reply to: BOAC Liberator II Landing At Prestwick #834755

robstitt
Participant

Ian:

There is a newly-posted image of AL595 at Sydney, NS, en route to Gander for its transatlantic crossing. As you will see, the USAAF cockade has been over-painted with an RAF roundel and the ’10’ painted out with black paint.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/156388…57692742757854

I wonder if AL595 was given US markings in anticipation of it being taken back by the USAAF, given that 50 of the 139 of what became Liberator IIs purchased by Britain were retained… but not AL595.

Does anyone know if there were IARC movement cards for these retained Liberators, operated with their British serials as illustrated earlier in this thread? If so, acquiring the one for AL595 should clarify if it was assigned to a USAAF unit prior to being delivered to Britain.

Robert
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