Schorsch… wrong on the XB-70!
Don’t let the “X” designation fool you… at that time (and before), most operational USAF aircraft started with a few “X” designated prototypes… which were followed by a larger number of “Y” designated “developmental” versions… and only then by the production versions.
Yes, the bomber program was cancelled before the first prototype was flown, and the 2 prototypes were finished and flown as experimental aircraft, but it was indeed designed and intended very much to produce an operational bomber.
Please show me any aircraft that went into USAF inventory that started with an X designation? Many/all aircraft had the Y designation (for prototype). The only intended operational aircraft I can remember that started with X are the JSF (X-32, X-35).
The first XB-70 could hit Mach 3, not trouble free though. But for operational use 10 pre-series aircraft were planned. The B-58 used 15 pre-series aircraft!
SR-71 was pretty much a one trick pony due to it’s extremely limited flight envelope. The mach-altitude band was narrow to prevent inlet unstart. In other words, it could not fly high and slow or low and fast.
Right so.
It wasn’t a fighter but a recon aircraft. The high endurable speed came with a price. It was for the intended mission a very feasible approach. And the SR-71 always remained a very special aircraft, not useful for large operational use.
For the Mig-25 vs. SR-71, I believe the Blackbird edges out the Foxbat for speed, especially sustained speed.
There is no comparison as both were designed for different missions, and one couldn’t do the mission of the other. The only reason why the MiG-25 is often put against the SR-71 is its (in case of the MiG-25) theoretical ability to go beyond Mach 3, which was side effect of its development. It wasn’t deployed for that reason, while the SR-71 was. The question if one (MiG-25) can successfully intercept the other (SR-71) is acedemic and about 17391 posts concerning this issue were written in this forum alone. Please don’t add number 17392.
From the pure technical point of view, the SR-71 employed more advanced technology. It also enjoys a very positive image, which actually can not really be reasoned by its operational impact.
First of all, the T-4 was never flown above M1.3, so how believable is the M3 speed the Russians said it had?
Why wasn’t it flown beyond Mach 3? I guess because the technical specifications did not allow it (the Russian otherwise never missed to set a record if possible). I guess the first and only prototype wasn’t even intended to do so. In order to build such an aircraft with so little experience, one has to do extended risk reduction. All Russian manufacturers did it with prototyping, they relied more on prototypes. Unlike American industry the first prototypes hardly achieved the overall performance (reason may be the contractual logic of the USAF, where the initial aircraft need to demonstrate the required performance). They Russian often initially build testbeds, carefully used them to gain experience. Not a bad approach, just a different, more time consuming often (not always) and more costly.
You can see similar approaches on most MiG and Suchoi aircraft, the Buran and other. Some American and European aircraft programs also saw prototypes that didn’t match the performance of the intended aircraft (see EAP, or the many X-programs of the 50s). Also the XB-70 was a prototype from the onset and with this fact in mind that it wouldn’t see service, many issues that plague an intended operational design could be evaded.
Taking a risk-reduction prototype as prove that they were unable to reach that performance in general is flawed logic, proving the opposite is equally flawed.
In 1985 MiG-31 versus F-15, i feel the MiG-31 is better at BVR and the F-15 at close range too close to call a winner
😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀 😀
just funny
in 1974 MiG-23M versus F-4E. this clash is too close to call but i favour the MiG-23M
equally funny
In 1972 MiG-25 versus F-4E, i favour the MiG-25
Is that with or without support by ground radar?
I’m not arguing for or against either the Leopard 2 or the Abrams. Again, I feel that they are, at the moment, two very closely matched tanks. So closely matched that to discount the fact that one of the two types was available cheaply and practically instantly to most users would tip the selection every time. In fact, if you look at it, most of those users had no competition against the Abrams.
What strikes me: the US Army has 5000+ Abrams in service. What do they need it for? In Iraq and Afghanistan a few are on duty. Or what is the number of Abrams in service?
Check it for yourself just in case Flightglobal edits it. A manufacturer whose plane enters service 4 years before the manufacturer makes agreement!
Although I have the printed version of the Flight International weekly on my desk, and although I value this magazine as one the best cross-over information sources in the business, they do mistakes and sometimes jump on doubtful projects. The size of an article does often not relate to the real feasibility of a project.
USAF transport aircraft purchasing seems to have been a disaster area for about 30 years, with the exception of the C-17. There’s a clear need for something bigger than a C-130 but cheaper than a C-17 (looks as if canning AMST was a mistake), & a dearth of small transports (at last being addressed by the planned C-27J buy).
Maybe because they always insist on excessive short field capability and the ability to carry a tank. Of course, a general would like his aircraft to carry anything anywhere, but the related price tag is obscene.
And the consequence is that short-field-able C-17 fly logistical missions from CONUS to Iraq into 3000m fields. What a waste! The C-17 are cleared for 30,000hrs lifetime.
Germany is getting 60 to replace 53 C.160 (further 30 in reserve). 36 are planned as logistics transports (6 as 3 point tankers) and 24 as tactical transports (4 as 2 point tankers for NH90 CSAR) – the tactical transports will be fitted with a terrain reference system for all weather terrain following down to 150 m. Granted the missions need to preplanned before mission start, but this is a capability almost on par with MC-130 special forces transports….
The A400M combines some very unique features. It has an Airbus-like FBW control system using computer control augmentation and envelope protection (with “military” limits 😉 ). The LLF (Low Level Flying) can be set on the FCU, just like you set a course or a Mach number. It works in two modes (Comfort & Normal). The mission support computers can actually calculate a 4D trajectory for the pilot using terrain data. Means, the pilot programs in & out waypoints and the computer figures out how he gets from in to out at chosen altitude, actually flying around high terrain. The minimum is somewhere at 500ft in fully automatic mode. I think a Tornado isn’t much better.
An A400M can drop stuff in pitch black night over mountain terrain into a valley and still go relatively undetected, and that all without excessive workload. A perfect aircraft for special operations missions, troop support and disaster relief. It can operate into a 1000m unpaved strip (means landing with large payload, lift off with return fuel).
The A400M is an excellent airborne tanker, which can operate comfortably with helicopters and fighters (reminder: it goes M0.7 without problems, so you don’t have to do air refuelling at stall speed like with a C-130).
You already answered your question.In several books is said that this is one of the main reasons why Flogger suffered more casualties than expected.
But when MiG-23MLD promotes the superior radar of the MiG-23MLD, then I would like to know if any relevance was given to improve the man-machine interface. The F-15A was up to my knowledge the first aircraft where one single pilot could handle a BVR fight without close guidance (means: acquiring target, locking, firing). Of course, ability is very depending on training and workload may easily exceed the limit, especially when under attack. On an F-16A (although the aircraft lacks MR-AAM support) the radar allows the pilot to have a quite useful awareness of the situation 50km in front of him, possibly even plan his tactical maneuvers ahead (f.e. a bracket maneuver).
N-008 Sapfir-23MLAE-II (MiG-23MLD)
75 km vs bomber, although also have 90 km (which is more likely)
50 km vs fighter. also have 55 km+ vs fighter (again more likely)
Said to be superior to APQ-120, equal to APG-66, inferior to APG-63 with LD/SD performance (AFM from a few years back)
One question: Both F-15A and F-16A used digital processing of the radar signals in order to allow one pilot to cope with the related workload in a real BVR situation. The F-16A even used a multi-mode radar (AN/APG-66 I think) and is said to be very easy to use (range is also said to be ~50-70km against fighters). Anyways, considering that 1960s radars (f. e. as used in F-4 Phantoms) could only be successfully used with dual crew if not closely guided by the ground, I would like to know which improvement the MiG-23 and its weapon system experienced during development.
Radar range is nice and easy to understand, but I cannot imagine how a single pilot tries to adjust his radar manually while watching in a 3″ green&black scope (possibly in bright sunlight at 45000ft), and at the same time fly the aircraft, defend itself. A 50km range versus fighter targets basically means 90 seconds if both close at 900 km/h. I guess locking a target, readying the missiles and doing the fire sequence wasn’t something one does with a single click.
I always understand the term BVR in such cases more as “beyond visual range if target direction is known and interception procedure is followed”. Otherwise I would see it more as WVR all aspect engage capability.
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Logan Hartke
Your points are true to some extend: the underlying reasons to buy tank A or tank B are often political, and the surplus Leopard 2A4 sell quite well, indeed. Still, most armies consider the Diesel-engine equipped Leo 2 more useful than the more sophisticated Abrams. Performance-wise I would think they are both comparable. Nowadays, like with aircraft, the equipment counts. Anyways, wrong forum for such a discussion.
Its utterly stupid that you constantly see Rafales, Hornets, EFTs etc running around with an almost welded on centreline drop tank – why the fook was that not designed into the airframe? :confused:
Not really. When they drop it they have a clear performance gain. Of course, in normal missions that isn’t needed. But if the tank is dropped, it can outfly any aircraft that carries the fuel inside. Consider growth factors: every pound extra empty weight needs 2 additional to keep the performance. Additionally, the extra drag of one supersonic fuel tank is less than some might think. The Typhoon can supercruise with an external tank. I guess for a more detailed discussion you might open a thread. It is a rather interesting issue.
OK, the afterburner needs ~50% more than most turbojets of that era (it actually doesn’t compare too bad against later turbofans in reheat). The really problem is the gas leak in dry thrust. But look by yourself:
[ATTACH]158675[/ATTACH]
That is, we have an SFC of about 1.5 at normal subsonic operations (11km@M0.9). That is about 30% more than an average early turbojet and ~40-50% more than a J79.
Note that the engines at M0.8 and 11km give ~3800daN thrust in reheat each, and 2900 dry each. With reheat at M2.0 they give 16000daN, so an increase of 400% compared to Mach 0.8.
Understanding turbojet technology 101. 😉
long range air surveillance radars are still pretty huge. Youd need even bigger trucks than are used now to have them stabilized while driving. Furthermore, you’d have to have preplanned stretches of road made for them to drive on, which would seriously lower their mobility, as enemy could eliminate lots of directions where the radar could move to.
Yeah its possible its just that its not worth it. What could be worth it is not radars that work as the truck moves but radars that can be folded up in matter of seconds and start working, when the truck stops. No trailers, no anything. Just an array on top of a highly mobile (and rather large) vehicle. Goal would be to make it possible to stop, deploy and start surveillance within 30 seconds; also same time needed to move on – with everything being automatic, done with a push of a button. Still, something like that… i imagine it would limit the size (and range) of a radar, in order to be used like that. And again you would have to have prepositioned stretches of land to scan from, though far more than in the first solution…
Then, ideally, you’d use something like 3 times more such trucks than necesarry for constant covers. And trucks would leapfrog each other. First one keeps its radar turned on at, say, 10:00 hours, second one turns its radar on at 10:01, first one turns its off and moves to a new, random, location. Third one turns its radar on at 10:02, while second one turns its radar off and changes location. At 10:03, having previously stopped and deployed at a new location, first one starts emitting. And so on…
Naturally, that’d require vast spaces of free land to work on, lots of fuel, lots of manpower, it’d be very complicated and very laborous. And even though trucks themselves would be kilometers apart (if not more) It might still not be enough for a single truck to survive against various cluster munitions thrown in the general vicinity. A truck could move, having perfect flat land to drive on, up to a kilometer within that time. Realistically it would be few hundreds of meters less. I guess 4, not 3, trucks should then be used to leapfrog each other. And again, it wouldn’t prevent enemy from destroying them, it would just lower the chances, although consideratly, as youd need a lucky shot within the right time window which would be quite narrow.
Maybe possible with a electronically scanned array radar. If the radar detects a missile it basically needs to move something like 50 meters to prevent destruction. Also thinkable would be a decoy moving while emitting from the radar and the original radar being shut down. Quite theoretical ideas, however.
The issue of the Tomcat being obsolete is nonsense.
No, that is just what it is about. A late 1970s F-14A Tomcat is obsolete and its weapon system only a threat to other 1970s fighters, so it worked quite well against Iraqi aircraft in the 1980s. Amusing to note that both the USAF (1991) and the IranAF (1980-88) found its self-confidence in conflict with the Iraqis, while the Iraqis performed quite bad in both conflicts.
Upgrading it can be done. If you fit it with new weapon system it will have a new weapon system. Then it is obsolete in airframe and engine, but up-to-date in weapon system. Done on F-4F.
But if you assume the Iranians only modify the existing system but not radically rework it (which would mean quite a task), then they will not exceed the original performance so much that it makes a difference in 2007.
Nah, your answer just demonstrates your typical knee jerk response of ad hominum.
Still, he is right.
You should really update your knowledge on thrust and SFC of different turbojets and turbofans. Problem is: to really get an idea, you need time and good sources, because it ain’t covered in Wikipedia and even dedicated books remain quite brief on this issue. The values on the net (thrust and sometimes SFC for static sea level) is useless junk.