That it is true, however i do not see too much likeliness to that kill, unless the kill was made while it was taking off of landing but i am not incline to believe them, the MiG-25 pilot knows only speed and BVR missiles are the strong points of the MiG-25 below Mach 1 the MiG-25 is not as quick agile or maneouvrable as the F-5 or many other fighters, its agility is frankly defficient, so i think most likely never happened because i do not think the Iranians had air superiority as the USAF and RAF had over Germany in 1944-1945 when the P-51 used to kill Me-262s at take off and landings Specially when the kill was made with guns, i can believe a F-16 shot down one with an AMRAAM or the F-15s with Sparrows or AIM-120 but a F-5 with a gun i doubt it, i mean sound more like a fable than a fact, i do not discard the posibility, it is up to a degree possible to happen but basicly it is very unlikely it happened as a result of superiority of the F-5 over the MiG-25
Engine failure?
Technical problem?
Navigation mistake?
Fuel starvation?
SAM hit and subsequent air kill?
Bad luck waits on each corner and so much can go wrong so fast in supersonic aircraft.
I do not think the Russians suggested the Iraqis to dogfight with a MiG-25, the MiG-25 was like the Me-262 only good for quick attacks, i am inclined to think that is a fable, no good MiG-25 pilot will dogfight with a MiG-25, only a very fool pilot will do it.
Sometimes you can’t choose.
Finally, someone I can agree with!
But you did forget the B-2 Regional Jet.
A great way to increase your number of landing slots without the airport knowing.
😀
I consider to use the last sentence as signature.
Would you not expect a Boeing 777 to perform better than a Boeing 727?
Well, the B727 is faster than the B777 and has lower landing speed, speaking for the exceptional design of the 727. But it his other disadvantages, especially is it designed for a different mission and can hardly be compared on a mission basis.
But I think the F-15 will keep some advantages, which are now considered less important.
I’m not getting into this thread, but MiG-23MLD I have a problem with something you said…..
There is nothing “to get” from this thread.
Quick, I need 10 aircraft:
A310 Bomber
Tornado GTI
Hanse Jet
Me163 with BVR-capability
Jäger 90
VJ101
A380 Tanker
Just 7, but all undoubtetly the greatest aircraft of all times, decades ahead of their time. Unfortunate just they were never build in numbers or at all. Yeah, Lockheed Martin’s fault, as always.
So only by 1989 the F-16 gained the AIM-7 and by 1992 the F-16 gained the AIM-120, so basicly the F-16 was inferior to both the MiG-23MLD and MiG-29 the Soviets operated in 1988.
Of course you need to praise the MLD a bit, but your claim is a little bit to sporty in my eyes.
The F-16A’s empty weight is given with 6600kg. Lets add one ton to that, consider 3/4 internal fuel, 4 Sidewinders, a pilot and gun ammo.
That is:
6600kg Empty
1000kg (additional undefined equipment, to make my calc conservative)
100kg pilot
320kg Sidewinders
60kg gun ammo
2330kg fuel
———
10410kg, wing loading is 373kg/m²
Thrust(static)/weight: ~1.04
MiG-23MLD under similar conditions:
10200kg Empty
100kg pilot
320kg 4x IR-AAM
60kg gun ammo
2780kg fuel
———
13460 kg, wing loading (45°) is 377kg/m²
Thrust(static)/weight: ~0.95
From this view things look good for the Flogger. However, it must be considered that the F-16 gets more lift out of its wing, has lower drag at G-load and automatic slats/flaps. Additional we can count the radar (with dogfight modus), the HOTAS-system, the carefree handling, the exceptional view and the the higher g-tolerance of pilot and airframe. Some of these characteristics are even better than for the MiG-29A.
One problem is whether they fit the mission profile. Can standard civilian freighters (as distinct from the military-style but civilian-owned An-124s, Il-76s, etc) carry the desired loads to the desired places?
A civil cargo aircraft would be limited to normal airports with at least some facilities. It cannot cargo outsized goods, has restrictions in floor pressure and needs tooling to be unloaded. But I think 90% of all cargo is palletized cargo not weighting more than normal air cargo (and if it can be packed less dense). If the final destination is of limits to the freighter, a hub’n spoke system would make sense with theatre aircraft like C-17 and C-130 carrying the short legs. this would require more manpower on the intermedium airports, while a forklifter and some local guys would do quite a lot.
This system is only efficient for long standing troop contigents which need considerable support, so for the less “trigger-happy” nations it is probably to much.
If one take the cost of ownership of a C-17, and the subsequent cost per flight hour, a flight of a former commercial airliner would be much cheaper if the C-17 can be spared (of course only if the saved flight hours allow to delay investment in replacement aircraft).
It would be very interesting to know if it is less expensive to buy some old B747-200 and use them in times of need, outsourcing maintenance and basically park them in the desert when not needed. The pilots can be recruited from airlines as part time pilots (retired jet pilot would also suffer).
Or if it is less expensive to charter cargo aircraft. Actually, for longer missions far off the homeland (Iraq, Afghanistan) the purchase of aircraft would surely be less expensive, especially as the cost of ownership is not that high for old cargo aircraft.
Well the Russians are saying something very similar to your analysis, they said that basicly the F-16 was not the best performer, they say as a hunter their engines did not give them what they needed and the heavier take off weight handiccaped the F-16.
They however claim the MiG-23s never were blind, they claim simply that the R-23 achieved kills because once it were fired some impacted the F-16s but at very short range, this was the result of the Israeli Jamming however many forget the F-16 lacked an IRST system.
So their main statement was the F-15 in 1982 was the true best fighter, Mcdonnell Douglas did indeed make a real high performance totally superior to any thing the Syrians had in June 1982 this is admitted by the Russians but they claim General Dynamics did not give accurate combat figures for the F-16.
How are the Russians supposed to get true performance figures for the F-16? No aircraft performs in combat as in testing, so many things different, ranging from weather over pilot performance, engine issues and the loads, which will not always be as stated in the flight manual.
But if the Russians said it was not the best performer, it sounds like a sedation for themselves. In 1982 the F-16A was still ahead in terms of technology, with only the MiG-29 catching up in terms of performance (but not in terms of technology). Reality is that the F-16 was much better suited for visual air combat than any current Russian made fighter, which at that time compromised only MiG21 and MiG-23 (ranging from M over ML to MLD). the MiG-29 was just entering service.
Heavy take-off weights should not been the foremost isse in Lebanon, as combat radius was rarely more than 100nm. That aera is small. From Tel Aviv to Damaskus is only 100-150nm, 15 minutes for a jet in fast cruise, down to half for supersonic cruise.
The F-16 has some few aspects i think makes it less powerful than the F-15:
A)It is lighter and had no BVR capability until the 1990s, the F-15E had the range and the weapons, also it is an exaggeration the F-16 carried only bombs, it also carried AAMs.
If you load an F-16 with heavy weapons loads something very important happens, that is its thrust to weight ratio is lowered, the Russians say the Israelies flew heavily laden F-16As with less agility than the advertized by the then General Dynamics
The Russians claimed that in fact that made the F-16 less capable than what it is usually claimed and was one of the factors the even the MiG-23MF could fought it because it was heavily laden and lacked BVR AAMs in 1982 besides the MiG-23 can fly low and fast for longer periods of time than the F-16 allowing it to evade the F-16.up to what i have read the F-16 has lost several more aircraft to “SAMs” and “friendly fire” also several MiG-23BNs shot down by the F-16s shared the kills with AAA units.
It also has had more accidents than the F-15, so the F-16 is less reliable than the f-15
Where it scores high is in sales and productability however it is cheaper than the F-15 making it less profitable than the F-15 per unit, after the 1990s the F-16 evolved into one of the best fighters armed with AIM-120 first and later the Python V and IV.
The F-16 also has claim by Serbian, Soviet, Iraqi and Syrian authors or statements that claimed F-16s were lost and killed by their armed forces.
The F-16 is a compromise design. Its stated performance is only achievable without external loads or 4 AIM-9 at best. Engines are rated lower for peacetime. From the simple flight performance perspective it may easily lose in top speed, acceleration and climb rate against the MiG-23 in some flight regimes, especially above M1.2 due to the high A/B thrust increase of the MiG-23 (the F-16 lacks also adjustable inlets). But the shear performance is one factor, soft factors like situational awareness, g-tolerance of the pilot, view, ease of control and confidence in envelope protection (no stalling or spinning), intuitive controls (HOTAS) and multi-mode digitally controlled radar have bigger influence in such situations, especially when the pilots are trained with their tools. I guess most of the time Israel’s pilots could get a lock-on and fire a missile (all-aspect IR) even before the Syrians were able to strike back in any way. Only few Syrian aircraft had BVR weapons (only MiG-23MF and better), and their usage in this high-ECM environment with mostly low level engagements and basically no ground support by Syrian radar was surely tricky.
In combat as seen in 1982 I think the performance was no real factor. The Israelis had most of the time control of the situation, had hte much better missiles (with AIM-9L on the pylons, the Syrians would have performed better) and the better pilots. The aircrafts are not so much a factor, and the Israelis said that. I think it is mostly violated pride (on the Russian side) or overconfidence (on the western side) that leads to this battles of who performed how well.
You might be interested in reading this:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0132.shtml
Schorsch – ok, transonic drag rises do rule out part of my theory – however, a swing wing will reduce the transonic envelope, and you’ll have the benefits of reduced drag coefficient above Mach 1.5 ish.
Its pretty crucial for a carrier wing to get to defensive intercept positions quickly no?
Don’t forget, that we are comparing what was a pretty basic design of wing with some much more complex ones – with current CFD capabilities, one could expect to improve significantly on the design. Did the F-14’s wing even incorporate LE slats?
Tomcat has LE-slats.
CFD and stuff is better used to design a conventional wing. The swing wing offers less drag in some regions, but with conventional wing a smaller and less heavy solution can be taken. The overall thrust need is smaller in the end. And consider: with the need for high manouverability, the thrust is there anyway. The F-16 could spare the adjustable inlet, because it had a strong engine and could afford some losses in upper 1.x supersonic region.
The Rafale gets down on a carrier deck, too.
C-5 takeoff, landing and fuel consumption performance stinks due to the crappy TF-39 engines. Unfortunately, TF-39 was a sacred cow within the USAF engineering establishment at Wright Patterson. Despite TF-39’s shortcomings, USAF refused to consider infinitely better CF6 when they bought the “B”s. Now, 25 years later, the old b@stards who championed the TF-39 are retired and the CF6 is finally being retrofitted in the RERP program.
While I just read that people in USAF think to exclude the A’s from modification due to rising costs of the program. The Galaxy has a thrust/weight-ratio comparable to an A340-300 when fully loaded (doesn’t make you famous for performance when compared to an A340). Good field performance can be expected for short-haul lifts with medium capacity. When the requirement was made, this was obvious and nobody wanted an aircraft that can do short start with full load.
TF-39 may have sucked hard, but it was the first operational high-bypass turbo-fan (ratio of 8, pretty close to GE90) and marked the start of the commercial adaption (the CF-6, with lower bypass). Funnily, by that the USAF financed GE’s entering in the commercial jet engine market, where it is the most succesful company at the moment. The TF-39 was one of the very few things that went somehow according to plan in the Galaxy program, while everything else was a catastrophe.
Several have been shot down, and in GWI it did not score any air to air kill, about its air kills also several are claimed killed in Air to Air
It was so busy dropping bombs all the time. Compared to the F-15 it loses in BVR, which was used quite a lot in GWI (ha, what surprise with total air control).
The real performance show-off for the F-16 was Lebanon, where it performed quite well against other fighters, most of them possible adversaries (though often quite downgraded and outdated [MiG-23MF and MS]) in an East-West conflict. Although the boundary conditions are hardly comparable, it at least proved quite effective (with the other small revolutions compared to 10 years earlier: all-aspect IR-AAM, effective radar and radio jamming, nearly complete destruction of enemy air defence).
I’ve heard people claim that the C-5 is actually a better short field plane than the C-17, both from a distance needed for takeoff/landing with equal loads perspective and from a runway surface perspective. (Apparently the C-17 doesn’t do so well on true rough runways or sandy surfaces while the C-5 is ok. This is one of the rationales for developing the C-17B program to address these issues so we don’t have to rely on aging C-5s to perform certain missions.)
The Galaxy has not really great field performance. Of course, 50 tons in a Galaxy are easier for the aircraft than in a C-17 (smaller aircraft).
I would really like to know on how many missions the specific capabilities of the C-17 are needed. I think mostare between normal airport and normal aiport. The C-5 is no short field aircraft. It has, however, low runway load (many tires) and can be offloaded without special equipment.
If the USAF decides to purchase a specialized cargo aircraft, I would recommend used B747-200 or used A340-300. The B777 is not the best option for several options: It has the highest demand for runways (even more than A380) and is pretty expensive.