I understand that UK rules are the tightest and have been applied EU wide, at least parts of it (for example the 900hrs per year). But as I understand you both operate short haul trips, which are considerably more challenging due to several landings, time constraints, traffic, like the difference between an Autobahn ride and a one hour inner city tour.
Still, I guess if fatigue was an issue in this case we will learn it and Emirates will get spanked for it.
Obviously you don’t fly professionally nor understand what leads to fatigue. Fatigue isn’t a culmination of a months work of flying, it’s a result of events leading up to an event, hours perhaps a day before. How many hours off duty did this crew get prior to the flight in question? How many of those hours were restful? Did the hotel hold a Cinco de Mayo event outside the crews rooms leading to no sleep on there part?
Legal limitations don’t guarantee a rested crew unfortunately. Legally a crew only has to have 8 hours of rest between duty days (domestic US). Now that 8 hours isn’t really rest but 8 hours of not being on duty which is roughly from the time the door opens to 30 minutes before the next flight leaves the next day. Now the crew has to be transported to and from the hotel, check in, eat, go to bed, wake up, great ready for the new day, etc. I’ve had van rides from 2 minutes up to 30 minutes one way to the hotel. That 8 hours can easily, and legally, be nothing more than 6 hours of actual rest. Legally a crew can be scheduled for 14 hours of duty, 8 hours of rest followed by another 14 hours of duty not to mention that duty days can be extended to 16 hours for weather and maintenance. I’m sorry, but rest/duty rules suck and do little to insure a rested crew.
Fatigue is rarely used “magically” by crews. I can’t think of another accident where fatigue was mentioned by a crew as a cause. Given your attitude towards it you must have quite a list though so please share.
I am not disputing that crew rest legislation has many holes in it, and airlines really working on the legal limits can easily overwork their crews.
But I don’t like the reasoning: close to 100hrs a month => fatigue. That conclusion is drawn in that article.
You can have 100 duty hours a month without having 14 hrs a day. Actually, if they fly 10 block hours with 20 hour off in between, it is 5 trips a month.
As all people survived there is plenty of possibility to find out if crew was deprived of sleep. So I guess we’ll wait for the report to tell if the crew did remain
– within legal limits
– within commonly acceptable human limits (which I would consider at least 10 hours, preferably 12 hours between two shifts)
On the 2006 ACAP of the A380 the OEW of the Pax-version is given with ~270t, and the freighter is given with 250t. I would guess that for converted freighters the weight benefit is smaller, as some structural features cannot be removed (doors, for example).
Anyways, as I happen to know the actual OEW of the in service A380, I know there is quite a gap between published values and actual values. I guess for new-built the A380-values (see Wikipedia) may be transferred on other aircraft.
Just the actual given values for OEW are all rubbish.
Officially, the cabin is included in the OEW.
In case of the A380, you’ll find half a dozen of different OEWs.
Fatigue can do amazing things. CFIT’s are a perfect example. No pilot would intentionally fly their airplane into the ground. If something as severe as that can happen due to fatigue a simple error in button pushing is nothing.
Fatigue can also be used magically in favor of any pilot in nearly any situation.
I think the pilots have some friends that help them tossing **** on Emirates, even though I think say that the accuses maybe hold some truth. But if there is a limit of 100 hours monthly, and Emirates stays below it, where is the problem? Does Emriates need to fly substantially less than the legal limit to comply with the rules?
I can hardly believe fatigue is reason for someone to mess up his take-off speed calculation. If you fly an aircraft and have some experience, you should have a “mind-map” of take-off speeds and thrust settings (FLEX correction). You wouldn’t necessarily guess it, but some numbers might look suspicious.
In the A340-500 case the crew tried to take-off with very limited thrust under full load on a hot day. That is not fatigue, that seems to be lack of airmanship.
One thing that has always struck me as rather odd about the B737 is the way the main wheels still remain exposed even after retraction. Presumably there must be at least some aerodynamic penalty for that, so does anyone know if Boeing ever considered “fixing” it?
The aerodynamics of the B737 are “dirty”, especially in that area. You have quite a thick boundary layer, due to many influences (antennas, air conditions, heat exchanger). That is the downside.
Advantage is less structural weight, less complexity, better cooling for the brakes (remember: the B737 comes without brake fan, big issue for some operators).
And the A340-500/600 Trent 500 engines are in any case too big to be replaced by GTF-s. A340-300, on the other hand, is small enough to be propelled by GTF. And its competitors are B777-200ER and A330-300.
DC-8 reengining was quite worthwhile, even though new built DC-10s were competing against them. However, the production line had been shut down too thoroughly to build new DC-8-70s. Would the A340-300 fleet be worth reengining?
The change in SFC from the JT8D to the CFM56 was a healthy 25% and more, the engine only weighted a little bit more and had better thrust/weight ratio.
The GTF isn’t so much better than the CFM56-5C.
The re-engined DC-8 wasn’t competing against DC-10, most of them were converted freighters. Remember: at that time used jet airframes with some cargo hold and the option to put on an engine like the CFM56 didn’t exist that much.
That’s right Sens.:)
I live in Northern Norway.
We have 3 major millitary sheltered airbases in the North that can hold 2-3 regiments of NATO aircraft .That would be ANDØY airbase, EVENES airbase and BODØ airbase.
All are placed at about 600-800km from the Russian border.Of course the Russian would have the chance to do some serious damage with Cruise missile and some bombing raid on our infrastructure, but no way in hell would they get very far south with the army.
Basicly Northern Norway consist of high unclimbable Mountains that hits the atlantic sea, so against any big ambfibie attack would be quite easy to defend.
Also there are very little roads/infrastructure that can carry any mass armour division..The Norwegian/NATO strategi in the 80’s was that we would hold out in 5 days before we are reinforced by any big numbers of NATO troops/equipment.
Thanks
Besides, if the Russians destroy NATO airbases they would destroy the only possibility to support their own advance. Any meaningful seizure of Norway would only be possible if paratroopers are landed close to the airport and take them in a quick raid. I guess that is quite easy at EVENES due to the terrain (you need a 360° perimeter), quite impossible at ANDOYA, as Andoya is a bl00dy swamp without any cover (and the airport can quite easy be sealed off).
Anyways, as shown in 1940, Norway can be taken with very little troops if the strategy focuses on surprise and local strong points (see Narvik War Museum). Although being superior 5:1 (and the German troops consisting half of sailors), one month wasn’t enough to achieve victory.
Any mechanic/aerial advantage an attacker might have, a clever defensive can deny these advantages. 12 guys with 4 Panzerfaust may end most advances in Norway.
Indeed. See
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/03/24/324078/gtf-versus-open-rotor-which-is-best.html240 cm diametre engine – compared to 170 cm of the best existing A320 engines. Which means reengining the A320 looks impractical. Whereas A340-500/600 already has 240 cm diametre engine, and so does A330, so the free space should be right there under A340-300 wing.
A re-designed pylon could take some of the missing 50cm, basically as done on the B737Classic. Of course, that is heavy and clumsy, but would work somehow.
As for the A340-500/600 with GTF: The problem is twofold (attention: here comes good information for free on the public internet!).
The A340-5/6 will be replaced by A350-9/10 in near future, so these aircraft are dead, although they are sound designs.
Have a look at CFM56.
2xCFM56 is pretty efficient, on Boeing 737. But even Boeing Business Jet cannot match the range and efficiency of 4xCFM56 on A340-300.
Therefore, it makes sense that 4xGTF reengined A340 would accomplish tasks which are quite impractical with 2xGTF CS100ER.
Oh, maximum fraud. The reason why Airbus didn’t really jump on the GTF bandwaggon is that it doesn’t yield much advantage. As I said elsewhere, the problem with single aisle aircraft is not that they are aerodynamically inefficient or have thirsty engines, but that they are normally extremely oversized for the missions they fly.
Ask an EasyJet pilot how often he performs MTOW take-offs or makes take-offs without FLEX-regime thrust reduction (considering that his CFM56-5B are already castrated by default), you’ll see that using an A319 for a trip from London to Paris is a total efficiency disaster.
Yes. And now that Pratt and Whitney geared turbofan is available for small thrusts, like 10 500 kgf Cseries, but widebody twin sized GTF is ruled out, would this require development of a GTF trijet to make better use of GTF?
I recently read that P&W does not completely rule out a large thrust GTF. But the question is how the benefit compared to latest technology turbofans really is.
Would be interesting to know if a A340-300 with GTF could compete with new twins.
But they might have built a small quad DC-10 or Tristar, like A340 or Il-86. For some reason, three engines seemed better.
But what engine for a quad DC-10?
At that time, there were the PW JT9D, the CF6-50 (TF39 with reduced bypass) and the RB211 on the horizon. All were basically suited to power the B747-100.
A four engine DC-10-30 would have needed an engine in the thrust class of
555klbs * .23 * 1/4 = 32klbs.
That kind of engine didn’t exist at that time.
All widebody designs of the late 60ies and early 70ies basically were build to take advantage of the new generation high bypass turbofans (which could be traced back to the CX-HLS competition of the USAF).
The B737-3/4/5 were launched when a new low thrust turbofan was available (which based on the F101 of the B-1B, so again, a military spin-off).
One is sometimes astonished how much the development of new aircraft is hinged to engines.
No need now.
The trijet was to overcome the ETOPS “No twins” attitude. Now that twins can cross the pond, and the engines are getting safer and safer…..and more economical, I doubt if we see a trijet again. 3 engines is 50% more maintenance costs than a twin, too.
You could build a twin engined design to lift the A380, but the wings would need to be considerably higher off the floor (Probably top mounted), which would mean a fuse mounted undercart.
It would also mean a dihedral wing, which is not as economic as the anhedral, and doesn’t lend itself to winglets or other aerodynamic improvement ideas.
3x GE90-115B would yield round-about 155t reference thrust.
With 560t MTOW that would result in a thrust/weight ratio of .27ish.
So, very roughly, should work thrust-wise.
Currently the A380 has up to ~135t reference thrust, or a thrust weight ratio of .23ish.
Both Douglas and Lockheed planned to build widebody twins by deleting the tail engine (neither accomplished that). How much fuselage and wing commonality were they going to keep?
I think wing commonality would be basically 100%, as the wing doesn’t care if there is an engine in the tail. What would be different is the fuselage between wing and tail (due to completely different loads and system layout), the vertical tail and the overall systems map.
Think: three engines, each running a generator and hydraulic pump, that gonna change the system arrangement tremendously. It is not necessarily much heavier, but the changes reduce commonality to basically the wing and the forward fuselage, maybe the horizontal tail (while even that gonna need different size due to changed lever arm).
Conclusion: if you can avoid three engines, do it! The reason in the late 1960ies was that two engines were considered insufficient for long range flight and that no suitable engines existed for a twin DC-10 or L1011. Today the only reason remains the availability of suitable engines.
But the engine of choice was the Superfan, which could not be built. CFM56 was emergency replacement, and an unsatisfactory one. Let´s see if Pratt and Whitney GTF works.
What was wrong about, say, 3X Trent 600?
The original idea to build a twin and a quad from the same basic airframe denied a tri-jet configuration. The differences in CG, VTP arrangement and fuselage strength would have meant that both airframes would have been entirely different.
The CFM56-5C surely was no tailor-made solution, but I think it provided a useful solution due to the ambiguous availability of spare parts. The -5C bares very strong resemblance to the -5A and -5B, and also to the -7.
McDonnell-Douglas seriously tried to buy A330/A340 wings for their MD-11 stretch. This fell through; but Airbus also might have done something similar themselves.
I think a tri-jet is always a compromise to fit an aircraft into a mission with a certain engine in mind. The DC-10 and L1011 profited from sharing the same engine as the B747, A300 and later B767. It is interesting to see that all widebodies were basically built around 3 engine families of similar thrust capability:
P&W: JT9D/PW4000
GE: CF6-50/80
RR: RB211
That changed with arrival of the A330 and B777.
I’ve read where either Airbus or Boeing (can’t remember which…but probably both would agree) that they’re not going to replace the 737 or 320 until it’s replacement can offer a 20% savings in fuel costs and expenses.
I’m not sure we’ll see that anytime soon unless there is a huge switch back to turboprops.
(BTW: Horizon Air, the commuter subsidiary of Alaskan Air has said they’ll rationalize their fleet to all Q-400s…that means getting rid of their Bombardier RJs).
A full use of current technology would probably yield this 20%.
But why take the risk?
The economics on short routes are much different from long routes.
Most airlines using A320/B737 do not use the aircraft correctly!
That is, they fly short routes with oversized aircraft. Airbus and Boeing need to evaluate what the airlines actually want. Just giving them a better A320/B737 would in many cases not solve the problem. Airlines flying a 500-700nm leg with ~130Pax (typical EasyJet, Ryanair) is waste with any A320/B737 model.
Conclusion: the whole thing is not about a better aerodynamics or better engines, but the operational reality of airlines and how to adapt to it. Today an A319 operates routes previously operated by DC-9-51, and I doubt it really beats it on distances below 800nm in fuel burn (guess why NWA retains its DC-9s).