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Schorsch

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Viewing 15 posts - 661 through 675 (of 3,480 total)
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  • in reply to: Supercruising #2477801
    Schorsch
    Participant

    […]

    I provided you a guesstimate formula, and said it is very limited in precision, should only be used for cruise and basically is the same as comparing fuel fractions.
    It is not useful to do any “supercruise” guesstimates.

    Please do not refer to me when you come up which such crappy calculations, what you’ve done so does not hold any water.

    in reply to: Supercruising #2477823
    Schorsch
    Participant

    This includes FIGHTERS like the F-35…

    Try to stay serious: the “F” doesn’t tell mission. Otherwise F-105, F-111 or F-117 must have been great fighters. Or the F-15E.
    I don’t know why the USAF abandoned the “A”.

    Smaller fighters tend to be LESS powerful fighters….

    If being small made for the ‘best’ fighter, the F-15, Su-27 & F-22 would never have existed & fighters like the Mig-21 & F-5 would be dominating the world.

    Wrong. Learn some aviation basics. Don’t be reluctant to learn!

    The F-15A couldn’t establish a substantial positive kill ratio over the F-5E.
    You forgot that MiG-21 and F-5 were conceived in the 1950s, with the -21 being intended as supersonic point defence interceptor with an engine shortly ahead of the MiG-15s gas guzzler. The F-15, Su-27 and F-22 were designed with combat performance in mind, with technology available 2 to 3 generations ahead. If MiG had an engine available like the AL-31 in 1956, the MiG-21 would outclass every Suchoi 27.
    Your comparison is like pitching a 1958 VW Beetle versus a 1995 Golf III, and claiming that heavier cars are more fuel efficient.

    600nm

    The F-16C will not make 600nm.

    And if said fighter were capable of carrying said fuel internally the aerodynamic drag would be significantly less.

    In cruise to the combat. In combat the “internal only” fighter carries more dead weight and volume (try to understand transonic drag!!!).
    For many missions the external tanks have the advantage that aircraft can rapidly transit to best combat weight. If the F-16 is on a CAP mission with 3 big cans (which makes it more sluggish than an A380), it can transit into a nimble dogfighter with the movement of a fingertip.
    Fuel efficiency is no consideration in military operations, as long as combat requirements can be achieved.

    Also keep in mind that if a fighter burns 5,000 lbs of fuel it is 5,000 lbs lighter reguardless of whether that 5,000 lbs of fuel was carried internally of externally. Although 5,000 lbs of internal fuel is not required to fly the same distance/time as 5,000 lbs of external fuel…

    It can only tell you, that you use very simple logic, and therefore apparently do not understand the matter entirely. There is much more to the topic, and it is dependent on many aspects (cruise Mach number, altitude profile, engine setting, combat load, mission requirements).
    If we talk about about a simple flight from A to B with highest efficiency, yes, a clean design is the best (see A380). If we talk a supersonic air combat aircraft, the things are different. Try to understand and do not fall back to layman’s logic!

    in reply to: Supercruising #2477853
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Try some like ~50% is eaten up for the drag and weight of external fuel tanks…………:eek:

    That is spoon-fed knowledge some guy once wrote in a book, and as the matter is complicated and multi-variable people tend to stay with it. However, the number is generally too conservative.
    Subsonic drop tanks on turbo-fan equipped aircraft will yield much better results.

    But regardless afterburner is used or not, the MiG-31 really can fly far more than 700km from air force basement with 2 mach. Which not only the speed go ahead of Raptor but the Combat Radius also is much greater than what the F-22’s 463km. If fast speed is not the matter, if the combat radius is not the point, so where we go?

    The MiG-31 will have limited range at Mach 2.
    The claim is “range of 735km at Mach 2.35”, which does sound like a radius of a mission with a M2.35 dash section. In practical combat the MiG-31 has only a supersonic dash capability, it was never intended or designed for long supersonic cruise. The engine choice tells the story.

    I’m curious, is MIG-31 a supercruising interceptor? Why it is and why not.

    Such questions show your simple logic.
    MiG-31 is large and fast, so must be supercruising?
    Sorry, you have no idea about this topic, and you also seem reluctant to learn anything, although details are presented here for free.

    By all standards, the MiG-31 is less likely to supercruise than an F-4B.

    in reply to: F-35 Interception Question #2478134
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Coming from a city slicker, who can’t appriciate wonderfull nature:)

    Try to find a decent camping place on that island.
    All swamp, no trees. The nature there (in northern Norway) is wonderful, but not on that particular island.
    They have quite acceptable sperm whales around.

    in reply to: F-35 Interception Question #2478507
    Schorsch
    Participant

    ultra-high-speed long range missiles

    Which have an on-board ultra-high-compression espresso machine, too.

    in reply to: F-35 Interception Question #2478511
    Schorsch
    Participant

    I’ve often wondered what the effect of a Blackjack doing an East Coast run to Cuba would be if it did part of it’s flight at Mach 1.8 or something.

    For a Tu-160 to get to Cuba from Russian soil forbids any use of the supersonic capability. Like the B-1B, that is a dash capability mainly.

    For Norway the thing is easy as valuable “strike-worthy” targets are few and widely spaced. The Russians would never bomb some random village but concentrate on the air bases, which pose a high threat to their shipping.

    Therefore, if you live in Andenes on Andöy, you might consider getting yourself a nice summer residence elsewhere for the time, preferably with minimum distance to next air base being destructive radius of 100kt nuclear warhead plus the CEP of a Russian missile.
    You should take the distiller with you.
    Andöy is a crappy piece of swamp anyways.

    in reply to: F-35 Interception Question #2478827
    Schorsch
    Participant

    F-35 is a strike aircraft that’s sure, so what about it’s interception capability? It look quite important since most F-35 buyers will never heve F-22?
    Let’s check that scenario:

    A group of Su-35Bm is advancing Norweigan airspace flying at 52000 feet with cruise speed 1.1Mach. Norweigans detects Su-35s 350km faraway from the F-35 base. F-35 equiped with 4 x AIM-120D and SU-35s carrying 6 long range 2 short range missile. And F-35s are scrambled to intercept them…

    Question is can F-35 intercept Su-35s in that altitude and while it has 1.1 Mach?

    No problem, if the Suchois cruises with M1.1 and 8 AAM, they call “Bingo” at least 100km ahead of the base and return. No need for the Norwegians to go to work, rather check that the self-distilled Schnaps is coming out well this season!

    in reply to: Supercruising #2478831
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Let me summarise all this lift/drag internal/external fuel stuff.

    Carrying more fuel internally increases drag, both because of the extra weight of the fuel needing more lift & the extra drag of the larger fueselage needed to carry the fuel. There will also be some extra structural weight, increasing drag a little more.

    Carrying fuel externally also increases drag. The weight-induced extra drag is about the same, but the drag of external tanks is even more than the fatter fuselage needed to carry it internally. It is therefore less efficient than carrying all fuel internally, for the same fuel load.

    However, once external tanks are empty, they can be dropped. If this is done, then the drag of the aircraft carrying external tanks drops considerably. An aircraft carrying all its fuel internally still has the extra structural weight & fat fuselage, so is now at a disadvantage in fuel efficiency.

    In real combat operations, external tanks will be dropped when empty.

    Therefore, one can not assume that internal fuel carriage is more efficient overall than external. One has to perform careful calculations to discover whether it is or not, for any given mission profile.

    Similar considerations apply to the fuel efficiency of internal & external carriage of weapons. An internal weapons bay has aerodynamic & structure weight penalties to offset against the drag of externally carried weapons.

    The only indisputable advantage of internal carriage is in radar cross section.

    Is that a reasonable summation?

    See it this way: most fighters are designed for air combat. That is the whole aerodynamics are designed to meet ambitious combat performance targets. In case of the F-16 that is the lift over drag at multiples of 1G, supersonic drag (at maneuvering!). These whole requirements lead to a huge level of “overkill” for the 1G cruise. While a B777 cruises at 80-90% available power at altitude, an F-16 cruises at less than 50% (if we look at Maximum Power).
    The usage of a drop tank means a less efficient cruise, which doesn’t matter that much as – as I said – I have surplus performance. On the other hand, when I go into combat, the dropped tank allows me design a smaller more powerful fighter. That’s the whole point.

    One thing (and I know all the self claimed experts and Flanker-lovers will misunderstand me on purpose): one should look at fighters, not at fighter-bombers. Using an F-16C to haul two 2000lbs 400nm (the F-35A primary mission) is gross misuse of the airframe, but is done due to other considerations. If General Dynamics was given the specifications of building a bomber they wouldn’t have come around with the YF-16. You can make most fighters to fairly effective bombers (as the F-16), but you cannot make bombers to fighters.

    If we look at a modern TF-equipped fighter, about 20% of the external fuel is eaten up by aerodynamic drag, while another 20% is due to additional lift induced drag (due to weight). Problem is that most people never looked at the numbers, as they are not spoon-feed via Wikipedia but require serious investigation. Now, taking commonplace knowledge to judge about the usefulness of a particular design, that was made by professional engineers with years of experience, is a bit odd.

    in reply to: Supercruising #2480088
    Schorsch
    Participant

    I did a check with the modified formula, not surprisingly, the time difference remain ~41% in favor of gripen.
    But both aircraft got ~roughly 40% increase in time, and Gripen a slightly longer range then F-22.
    Thanks for the formula btw, now i have a rough idea.
    And if you find out what power setting should be used at >Mach 1, please let me know.

    To get better results you need some assumptions on drag, weight and throttle dependent SFC. I’ve shown some results for a fictional F-22 a few pages ago. With such “guessing” I get in the ballpark area of the quoted ferry range.

    in reply to: Supercruising #2480123
    Schorsch
    Participant

    To get a first hand idea of that is. Do use the Microsoft Flight Simulator and fly a Jet at constant power to height and watch the fuel-flow.

    But be careful as sometimes the used models, especially for the engine, are not that bright.

    in reply to: Supercruising #2480346
    Schorsch
    Participant

    If you use more or larger external tanks you increase drag which has an adverse effect on the additional range conferred by the extra fuel, fuel carried internally on give a weight increase not drag. Simple logic really.

    A pair of 350gal tanks on an F-16 increase the drag by roughly 15% in subsonic. More relevant in the beginning is the additional weight (more lift induced drag).
    When tanks are dropped (carrying them the whole trip is another thing, one would generally not do that if real combat occurs), their usage is a big contributor for an effective air combat aircraft.
    We had those discussions over and over and all the time all people familiar with the matter agreed that it makes sense the way it is done (i. e.: using tanks). It would also be a bit strange if armchair generals like us question the conclusion of dozens of teams of professional designers in the whole world.

    in reply to: Supercruising #2480349
    Schorsch
    Participant

    I would like to be able to get a general idea on time and range for an aircraft flying at max dry thrust speed, without making it too complicated and time consuming.
    Assuming all engines of similar vintage will behave similar at a given altitude, but unfortunately not at different speeds, could it be said that an engine burn X% less at 40.000 ft vs sea level, and if so, what would you estimate X to be ? (max dry thrust)

    ed. a very rough estimation is just fine, i’m looking for a general idea only

    Multiply the thrust from Wikipedia with squareroot of the density ratio (that is density at altitude divided by density at sea level, you’ll should find that somewhere in the net, too). As long as we are talking subsonic, the thrust at M0.8 is roughly the same a M0.
    Add 20%ish to the given SFC.
    Take about 20% of the fuel load for take-off, climb, reserve, and use the remaining 80% as cruise fuel (and in turn do not credit distance for climb and descent).
    Finally assume a 85% thrust setting.

    Fighter has 3.5t internal fuel, 10000lbs reference dry thrust, SFC of 0.8.
    Cruise fuel: 2.8t
    Density at 30k: .458
    sqrt(rho/rho0) = .61
    10000lbs*(1.2*0.8)*.61*.85 = 5000 lbs/hr
    Makes a cruise time of 1.23hr
    At M0.8 that is a TAS of 870 km/hr and by that a distance of roughly 1000km.

    Above numbers are a very rough F-16 (numbers from memory).
    When you do that for several aircraft, you’ll see that finally the fuel ratio is of importance.
    We’ll disregarded actual drag and stuff, and just assumed a standard throttle set.
    Many shortcomings, but for starters this method is more fruit carrying than guessing from the internal fuel to the range, as Scooter does.

    EDIT:
    Forget the squareroot of density ratio and take it right away.
    The squareroot produces too much thrust.
    Since computers do such stuff for me I forget the basics.

    in reply to: Weapon Load Question: F-14, MiG-27, al. #2480768
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Yes, the Flogger series has MER’s for smaller weapons such as 50 and 100-kg bombs, while dual racks can be used for 250 and 500-kg weapons. Typically these rack types are fitted on the glove pylons as they offer more room though I believe the two forward fuselage pylons can carry them as well (with the centerline pylon not being fitted due to a lack of space).

    Don’t forget also that the MiG-23/27 series can carry an additional external tank under each wing on a fixed pylon that is only fitted with the wings at minimum sweep (i.e. wings all the way out). These are used for ferry purposes.

    Here’s a stores chart denoting some of the various munitions carried by the MiG-27. You’ll notice that quite a large number of the smaller bombs can be carried by using the MER’s I mentioned.

    Note that on the MiG-27 the two forward fuselage pylons are actually fitted under the air intakes whereas on any MiG-23 model, they are fitted just inboard of each intake. Thus, a MiG-27 should theoretically have more room available on those two pylons allowing for bulkier loadouts in that location than the MiG-23 series.

    Great. Very helpful.
    Thanks a lot!
    One question: Where is The Bomb (i. e. nuclear)?

    in reply to: F-111 and Cruising Speeds #2480771
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Correct. The Q at low altitude produces more heat than traditional airplane materials can withstand.

    No. Not a problem on the deck.

    Schorsch
    Participant

    Yep, true it could, but….

    It was a very dangerous mission, with no terrain radar like the Tornado/F-111,which I believe why so many GAF pilots unfortunately lost their lives in training for this role. Basically it could do it, but It was not the “ideal” solution.

    But then if you threw in conventional AtG attack, it was not as good as the phantom. Though the anti-ship strike with the Kormoran was very useful!

    It was governed by the technical limitations of that time. The Russians used the Suchoi 7 for that mission, just to show the quality difference west vs east at that time. The Eastern German air force got their first INS-equipped aircraft in the early 80ies, more than 15 years later (though the GDR was never supposed to do nuclear delivery).

    The F-104G in such missions is comparable to the F-105D.

    The Phantom is the better all-rounder, but also much more expensive, and a disaster in low-level flight at high Mach number.

    Attrition of the F-104G was not so much worse than other aircraft of that time.

Viewing 15 posts - 661 through 675 (of 3,480 total)