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Schorsch

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  • in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2490814
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Neither range or radius Su-24 gained with 2x3000liter external fuel tanks are almost equal to F-111 without EFT, meanwhile, Su-24 still can load 5 missiles (3 under fuselage, 2 under wing each), how many missile F-111 can load at this time?

    I am pretty convinced an F-111F can beat the 330nm mission radius with 4 2000lbs bombs. That is actually the payload the F-111F of the 48th TFW carried in 1986.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2490833
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Do not make claism that are unrealistic

    I am working my way down towards the validity of your statements.

    First the Su-24 was never caught by the Western fighters simply because it has terrain following radar, this made it too difficult to catch flying a low speed and having swing wings no F-15, F-16 or even F-14 was going to be able to chase it at Mach 1.35 speed and low altitude.

    The mentioned aircraft all have look-down radars and can easily follow the aircraft in some altitude. Besides, at deck the Suchoi will hardly hit Mach 1. A continued run at Mach 1 on the deck will let it die on fuel exhaustion.

    True the Tornado lost several examples while the Su-24 none in bombing missions, however saying the Tornado did better is not true, the Soviets Su-24 flew very close to Pakistani F-16s and never were destroyed, Iraq never was a first class air force, in 1990 the iraqi air force was a third class air force and destroyed Tornados and F-111s, the West chased MiG-23s and Mirage F1s and destroyed them but the Su-24 were capable enough to elude any persuers.

    The main reason why no Suchoi 24 was ever lost in combat was that it never saw combat comparable to the F-111 (Lybia, Iraq) or Tornado (Iraq, Serbia).

    Second the Soviets always built more aircraft because their aircraft always used a great degree of standarization and simplicity allowing a same factory built different aircraft faster.

    With the little disadvantage that their aircraft needed ages to maturity, the Suchoi 24 entered service over 10 years after design was begun.

    The Su-7 , Su-17, Su-22, Su-11 and Su-9 were basicaly the same model, the MiG-23, MiG-29 and MiG-21 had similar cockpits and systems.

    That the mainstay of the Soviet air force attack aircraft (Su-17/22) ist “basically the same model” as the first generation supersonic Suchoi 7 is surprising.

    The Su-24 was a simple design avoiding over sophistication, in fact the downing of the Tornados showed simply SAMs and cheaper fighters were able to destroy more expensive systems and that was epitomised when a F-117 was destroyed by a simple SA-3 missile.

    Stuff your F-117 story. It doesn’t fit here.
    The Suchoi 24 was surely no “simple aircraft”. Although I agree that Western aircraft are often over-sophisticated for particular missions, the Suchoi 24 was a complex and expensive bird. Good indicator of its complexity is the long time needed to make it operational. Would be interesting though to compare the avionics capability of a 1975 Fencer “A” versus an F-111F or F-111D.

    in General the Su-24 was as good as the F-111 and was simply a design more practical in terms of price and producibility, not less advanced simply more practical.

    In general the Suchoi 24 was the F-111 minus advanced engines and about 8 to 10 years later.

    By the way F-111 were even offered to Germany and England and they did not buy it, too expensive for smaller air forces in NATO and over priced for third world countries only one nation bought it and they bought no much more than Algeria Su-24s.

    The German air force have not procured any American fighter aircraft after the F-4F. Maybe you see a pattern that led from Starfighter over VAK-191 over NKF to Tornado.
    Actually, the Australian bought their F-111 in the 1960ies (that is 40 years ago!). And you compare that with the present discount offer to Algeria? Man, you are really twisting reality.

    in reply to: What ifs.. in modern aviation. #2490924
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Personally I can’t see that the Government of the time (or any Government!) would have reopened the TSR2 programme.

    Maybe a wise decision considering the costs to develop such an aircraft.

    I think the Buccaneer would have been upgraded to have become a much more competent strike aircraft than the Tornado has become.

    In some missions maybe, but not as versatile and survivable.

    No Tornado would have left a vacancy for an air defence aircraft, I’m torn between Phantom or possibly Hunters filling that role? Not sure of the Hunters full capabilities in Air Defence.

    The Phantom possibly with strongly enhanced avionics. With turbo-fan engines and external tanks it can possibly have similar range, still a shortfall on loiter time.

    The Hunter? What for? To defend the white cliffs at Dover against Messerschmidt 109 at daylight? Britain would have been so much safer!

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2490947
    Schorsch
    Participant

    The Su-24 outproduced the F-111, has similar weaponry and the same survability.

    Which once again shows that the Soviets considered higher numbers necessary to fulfill the same mission.
    Actually, the last F-111 was nearly delivered when the Suchoi 24 was accepted into service. The first truly capable Su-24 (the M) entered service not before the Tornado.

    I ask you when has the Su-24 been shot down by western fighters?

    Maybe because it never dropped a bomb in anger in an airspace defended by Western fighters?

    The Su-24 was made with less range because for the Russians the Tu-22M filled much better the mission the F-111 failed

    Maybe they didn’t need it, but still from the technical point view the question how a similarly sized aircraft with roughly similar weights can have such a shortfall in performance.
    The answer is on the table: less advanced aerodynamics, less advanced engines, less advanced structures.

    The Su-24 was practical and more easy to produce and left the Tu-22M fill the gap between the Tu-160 and the Su-24.

    Let say it this way: it was cheaper and more expendable, which lines up favorably with Soviet thinking.

    The F-111 at least has 6000 liters more fuel than the Su-24 and some sources say up to 8000 liters.

    At roughly similar OEW and size, which let’s room for the question, what the Suchoi engineers did with all the volume? Stuffed it with analogue electronics?

    The Su-24 was built in very large numbers and was exported to more countries

    Countries that had equal access to Western and Eastern hardware like Iraq, Lybia, Syria and Algeria. Erhh … what a minute … 😉
    By the way, when the first -24s were exported in 1988, the F-111 was long out of production and for countries with access to Western markets the Tornado would have been the much much better alternative.

    in reply to: What ifs.. in modern aviation. #2490955
    Schorsch
    Participant

    5. What if Britain didn’t subscribe to the Tornado concept at all? Radically upgraded Buccaneers or rehashed TSR-2?

    6. Apartheid never ended, forcing the development of a strike and fighter jet to replace the Canberra, Buccaneer and Mirages with a mostly indigenous effort?

    5. The British industry would have continued to built aircraft tailor-made for its air force, and as such failing miserably on the global market. the dependence on its very own government would deter any private investor.
    The gap it filled in the Tornado program would have been filled by other nations, in case of doubt Germany itself. That would have created a strong competitor on the European stage after a while. Without the joined effort in the Tornado program British participation in the Airbus program would seem increasingly doubtful, especially as France and Germany have all necessary resources available.

    in reply to: What ifs.. in modern aviation. #2491040
    Schorsch
    Participant

    3. If the Navy ordered more F-14Ds and decided to keep them longer

    The US Navy would have a more expensive and yet less capable aircraft with a larger logistic footprint in its inventory. Without the AIM-54 missile this aircraft would be equally useless for long range fleet defense, a mission that however doesn’t exist any more.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2491042
    Schorsch
    Participant

    blabla

    Aircraft are best compared by operating empty weight or by maximum take-off weight. In these terms the Suchoi 24 fails miserably against the older F-111, in terms of
    – range
    – radius
    – war load.
    Any claims about smaller fuel volume are academic. One rather has to ask why the similarly heavy (in terms of OEW) has substantially less fuel volume.

    I further doubt that a 1991 Suchoi 24M/MF can have the punch the F-111F displayed during GW#1. Or that a Suchoi 24M/MF can fly the mission the 48th TFW flew in 1986.

    In short: the Suchoi 24 falls short in technology and capability despite being younger. it still was a major capability improvement for the Soviet forces, as it represented the first all-weather capable fighter bomber with useful payload-range characteristics and useful defensive electronics. It filled a gap between the smallest bomber and the largest fighter-bomber.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2491073
    Schorsch
    Participant

    A 600KM low level intrusion mission seems exactly what it was designed for, parked near the enemy territory flying missions from rough fields. Designed for real use, not being parked on a runway.

    Still, the F-111 achieves better radius for similar mission profile.

    in reply to: F-22 internal fuel #2491090
    Schorsch
    Participant

    I thought that the AMRAAM is ~ 160 kg. 220 kg was the weight of the old Sparrow.

    i don’t know the individual weights off all missiles from my head and was too lazy to look it up. I guess it doesn’t change the result in any noticeable manner.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2491122
    Schorsch
    Participant

    22300kg was adapted by Wiki, the range is clearly wrong, which should be combat radius.
    On internet, which one is more logical and reasonable should be judged by self brain.

    After the assessments I did I find the ~2800km ferry range with two drop tanks quite realistic. The mission radius for lo-lo-lo seems very realistic, too. Data-wise, the Wikipedia article on the Su-24MK looks as one of the better ones.

    The most unreliable information source is normally the operator of an aircraft.
    Most reliable are normally “merged” information sources, like Wikipedia and some other web resources (quite OK is vectorsite).
    In general, most “sources” copy from each other. Some include wishful thinking. Sometimes people cannot see the difference between a mission radius and a range, and often the values given are “best” values. A real mission includes lots of reserves and allowances. The 330nm for the Suchoi 24MK in a lo-lo-lo mission profile are not a bad figure, by the way.

    in reply to: F-22 internal fuel #2491157
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Note that recently the Wikipedia article on the F-22 changed to the 19t empty figure, like did the USAF. The USAF site (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=199) now states 19.7t empty weight.

    Lockheed Martin (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/f-22-specifications.html) gives 8200kg internal fuel.

    Assuming a tactical load of 6 MR-AAM (220kg each) and 2 IR-AAM (90kg each) and full internal fuel we arrive at
    19.7 + 8.2 + 6*0.22 + 2*0.1 = 29.2t (equals 64400lbs)
    That is still 2000lbs short of the stated 66700lbs from Stevenson’s presentation (while 2000lbs can be the difference between empty weight and empty equipped).

    Anyways, the fuel fraction is about .28.
    That doesn’t sound that good, but always remember: the Raptor flies clean all of the time.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2491160
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Lockheed official web gave the EW data of Rapator as 19700kg, will you believe it?
    Aircraft changed, officer lied always;)

    It is funny to see how the internet adapts to reality. While Wikipedia quoted the empty weight with something like 14-15t lately, it was changed to close to 20t recently. I am actually surprised Lockheed Martin gives such detailed weight data on its aircraft. Sure it isn’t accurate down to the pound, but it looks as accurate as one would expect.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2491646
    Schorsch
    Participant

    I plugged some available data into Excel and did some calculations using basic aircraft design methods. I backed it up with data from the MiG-23 (about different glide ratios at various wing sweeps and Mach numbers).

    The aircraft used here is an F-111F. I considered reserves, drag of external loads (which is always a guesstimate work of course).
    Mission profile is:

    1. Warm-Up, Taxi, Take-Off
    2. Climb with constant IAS to FL300, wings forward
    3. Cruise with constant Mach0.85 at FL300, wings middle
    4. Descent with cosntant IAS to 500ft, wings middle
    5. Fly 70nm at 500ft at full military power, assumed M0.85
    6. Time over target: 2.5min with maximum thrust at 500ft
    7. Egress 30nm with Mach 0.85 at 500ft
    8. Climb to FL350 with constant IAS, wings middle
    9. Cruise at FL350 with Mach 0.8, wings middle
    10. Descent with constant IAS 290, wings forward
    11. Land, Taxi, Shut Down

    Results:
    [ATTACH]162958[/ATTACH]

    Interesting: The low-level ride and time at target consumes about 30% of the total fuel. If one cancels this mission segment (for medium altitude bombing), the radius increases significantly. Lots of tricks can be done changing the cruise in&out Mach numbers.

    in reply to: Su-24 vs F-111 #2491697
    Schorsch
    Participant

    Up to what i know aircraft not only use the inlet ramp as a way of slowing down the supersonic flow to subsonic speeds they also use the nacelle inlet duct.

    The trick with variable geometry intakes is the control of the shockwaves. An intake that works best at Mach 1.3 may encounter severe difficulties at higher Mach numbers. All aircraft that started with variable geometry intakes and later got those fixed lost their Mach 2 capability, so for example the Tornado, the F-14 and the Starfighter, all with similar or more installed static thrust. The Tornado hardly makes it over M1.3 with the inlets fixed.

    in reply to: JAS 39 Gripen-N #2491702
    Schorsch
    Participant

    From the latest “Aircraft Illustrated”, test pilot Magnus Olsson says he expects the Gripen NG to reach mach 1,2 in “air to air configuration” without afterburner.

    Then let’s wait and see.
    Without detailed specifications I don’t want to judge on it.

Viewing 15 posts - 1,411 through 1,425 (of 3,480 total)