Proctor VH-AHYBut you did hit on an opportunity, why not relocate the “festival of light” to Sydney, so much better located for everyone to attend, and the smaller strips of Camden or Albion Park etc would be perfect, especially if run as a fly-in not airshow, imagine the turnouts that central location could deliver in terms of warbirds and vintage aircraft from North, South and Central, and maybe west as well?
– Great Idea! a truely “National” Fly-in for Antiquers and warbirds, centrally located in the “National Centre” or “World City” of Sydney, now that would really be worth going to!
As for all those Victorian’s we send up to Qld, well thats just the advanced party and infiltration forces, by the time we have finished “AFL” will be the dominant footy code, Daylight saving will be the norm, and then we can start shifting some of those nice vintage aircraft back down south where they belong!
smiles
Mark Pilkington
Good idea Mark, however FoF is run by the “Queensland” Vintage Aeroplane Group. HARS no doubt do a pretty good job for the NSW’ers (AKA Cockroaches) and the AAAA does something (in Victoria I think), poor old SA and WA are just a bit of the beaten track for most people.
Just as we are getting 50,000 odd Victorians migrating to Queensland each year we are getting an influx of the vintage and warbird aeroplanes. The climate in SE Queensland is favourable to flying and to some that is a big plus.
Based on QVAG experience, you Victorians need to plan to stage a big event and for sure the you will get lots of rain, especially in the week leading up to the event. I suggest that about January would be the month for you – summer rain – no big bush fires!
Mark, on a more serious note, how much serious rebuilding of vintage aeroplanes goes on down your way – an open ended and not loaded question. I am interested to know of some of the rebuild projects going on down there. Maybe we should open up a new thread
“Vintage/Warbird Rebuild Projects In Australia” – it could be interesting, no statics, just to flying.
Oh and I just remembered, AFL didn’t the Lions relocate from Victoria to Queensland and I seem to remember they won the grand final for a few years on the trot – but we got sick of “Aerial Ping Pong” and went back to “Thugby” I think the Bronco’s won the grand final of that for a few years in a row as well, but hey we are getting sick of that as well. So I think it will be “Wog Ball – the world game” that is the game for the future, don’t think we have won that yet, but no doubt we will! – smiles
cheers
cheers
Proctor VH-AHYThe “everythings better in Queensland” theme becomes tiresome after a while, and isnt neccessarily the case, or solution to all problems.
But Mark, its true, ask the squillons of Victorians that are migrating up here every year and destroying our lifestyle. Before long we will end up like another Sydney or Melbourne – overpopulated (yuk!) – trust me I am a qualified urban and regional planner.
But you would have to admit, Sydney is the world city for Australia and it does make sense having an International Event in the country’s world city, rather than just in one of the state capital cities.
I can’t think of an suitable runway in NSW, but I am sure there some, maybe one of the RAAF bases would be suitable.
As for the QVAG Festival of Flight – there is no doubt that it is the premier fly-in in Australia and that is not just a Queenslander’s opinion, it is a fact. Why don’t you come up and attend. I am sure you will enjoy yourself and appreciate the diffeerence between a fly-in and a air show and why to an enthusist (like you) the aviation fun factor is higher at a fly-in.
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYWell, the QVAG 2009 Festival of Flight will go ahead over the weekend of 29-30 August 2009. If things go like they normally do, we should see over 100 vintage and warbird aeroplanes at Watts Bridge Memorial Airfield, Queensland, Australia.
Its NOT an airshow, its a fly-in, its target audience is ENTHUSISTS. Usually lots of flying by all sorts of aeroplanes. Its the biggest in the southern hemisphere and in its 16 year
I think the Avalon Airshow is targeted at the general public and to the aviation industry. I don’t know for sure but I reckon there will be some government money backing it.
To be fair, catering for a general public audience puts different constraints on the organisers. There is usually big $$ involved and a flop can cause a lot of financial strain on the backers. The difference between success and failure can just down to the weather (and Melbourne has a reputation for fickle weather)
Maybe the Avalon Airshow should see a venue change (and name change) to be staged in Sydney.
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYIn the past a nunmber of people took up the invitation to display their vintage and warbird aircraft at the airshow.
Unfavourable reports from those people about the way they were treated have resulted in the airshow being regarded as one that MUST BE MISSED by many up here in sunny Queensland.
cheers
Proctor VH-AHYWhat a great idea and what great photos.
Proctor VH-AHYWell, older folk (that’s me) can’t see all that well in low light conditions. I seem to remember that when I went to the RAAF museum at Pt Cook I thought it was a bit gloomy, lit for effect rather than being practical.
Must be a museum thing.
Still I was able to take any photo I wanted, I think I could have used a tripod and my photo’s turned out well and it was very interesting and well presented (except for the outside exhibits which looked a bit worse for wear).
I did enjoy my visit and would encourage others to visit the RAAF museum at Point Cook, Melbourne Australia (gloom and all).
Now, where is my white cane
cheers
Proctor VH-AHYHere some places of planes crashes in France:
http://aerosteles.hydroretro.net/
in english
http://aerosteles.hydroretro.net/index.php?lang=en
Some exemple near my location:
http://aerosteles.hydroretro.net/fiche.php?code=molineuf-jenkings&type=py,nd&valeur=fr,41&lang=en
They are impressive monuments
thanks
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYNo one has the resources to place a gaurd on the many sites to prevent scrap dealers, souvenir seekers and Nighthawks with metal detectors from taking away items and the market in resale of bits /coins/jewellery etc is not illegal. In fact the aviation bits market is a fraction of what is on sale ,loads of coins of which many are forged are on the open market.
Closer to my home (Australia) there has been some debate on whether people should recover WW2 aircraft that were abandoned in New Guinea and some of the other Pacafic Islands. These aeroplanes are in many cases reasonably complete and did not crash or if they were involved in a mishap it was a forced landing.
These aeroplanes serve as a very good basis for a rebuild project or as parts for another project that results in an aircraft back to flying condition.
Many like me want to see these aeroplanes recovered and used for/in rebuild projects, however I can see that the recovery team should also investage the local area around the recovery site (often a long abandoned airfield). The point being to discover the context that existed at the time at the time the aeroplane was abandoned (ie an archaeological study of the immediate area).
HOWEVER…… There are campains being conducted by some to the effect that these aeroplanes should remain where they are. I can’t really explain why that should be so, but that is what they seek and they have started campains to get their point of view into effect.
What are forum readers opinions on the above.
Proctor VH-AHYHi Ross,
Some of the poms have contributed already when Peter was building the site.
http://www.ozatwar.com/ozcrashes/qld239.htm
Amongst other pages.
But yes I agree that the more added the better, just so long as the information is correct and can be traced, rather than cut and paste without comment from the web.
Regards
Ross
Thanks, that is an excellent example of what I was alluding to. The Australia @ War site provides a enormous amount of researched and qualified accounts, eye-witness accounts, contemporary accounts from surviving relatives and much more.
You will even find the odd page based on information I have supplied one being:
http://www.ozatwar.com/ozatwar/toogoolawah.htm
That page needs to be updated to reflect accuractly the current comtemporary situation.
Being a web site, unlike a book, it can be easily updated, added to and revised in light of new information becoming available to the webmaster.
As a source of information to the aviation historian in Australia, I believe it serves an invaluable service. Sure you need to check the data to be absolutely sure. However having checked the data and made any corrections where necessary, the site can and often is updated in light of the new information.
The hyperlinking between pages and other sites makes it easy to use.
Does Britian have such a comprehensive web site about the aviation activities there during WW2?
It seems to me that there is a lot of sites containing bits and pieces but no overall attempt to put in one place or cross reference extensively using hyperlinks.
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYGooday all
Well I am amazed I put up a URL to a site that does most of what much of the debate is about – documenting WW2 aviation history (be it Australia’s history) and not a single comment.
I think the site http://www.ozatwar.com/ should be compulsary viewing for everyone who is putting a post on this thread.
That site shows just what one man can achieve using modern technology (a web site and emails).
Maybe some of you poms should take a leaf out of his book and do something similar.
I can understand (since watching Time Team) the importance of context and its documentation for findings from a dig.
Surely the whole point is to find and document moments in time, to illuminate the situations of the day. Its not just to have a good time digging a hole – there is a lot more in it.
I am sure that a lot of the reports could be published on this forum and they would receive the most intense peer review.
So to those who have their reports gathering dust in the back room – lets see what you have.
JDK – yes I too watched Time Team earlier tonight – very interesting and amazing that that family spent so much money that they went broke nand that lead to the destruction of what they were building.
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYand others who were a wealth of expertise, knowledge and capability.
I too have a number of tertiary qualifications in engineering, science and business but consider my true industry expertise, skills and value really come from on the job training and experiences.
Mine in Electronics, Technology Management, Aviation Management and (of all things) Urban and Regional Planning.
I don’t disagree with anything you have said, they follow my own trains of thought. After watching Time Team, I thought doing a post-grad in archaeology and using as a project something related to aviation (maybe at Uni of New England). Have sort of given up on that idea because I want to finish my Proctor.
Its quite apparent from the tone of the threads that digging up old aeroplane wrecks is quite a passion with some people over there (where they continually lose at cricket). I don’t know why with all that passion, they don’t form a professional association and develop some standards, after all the Institutes of Engineering developed from the Mechanics Institutes during the late 1800’s early 1900’s
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYAnd another thing……..
Mark P, I would have used the remains of the bulldog as the basis for a rebuild project, assumed the identity by using a few genuine parts.
I would far prefer to see a Bulldog flying, that have a collection of rotting wood and rusty parts sitting in the corner of a museum (RAAF or other)…… besides I think we could have had both (a pile of old bits and a rebuilt aeroplane) and there would have been history (both modern from the rebuild and old from the original aeroplane) – the best of both worlds.
I love reading about old aeroplane digs, I love reading about rebuild projects, I love reading aviation history.
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYAs the originator of this thread, I feel free to expand on my original heading. I have found it very illuminating to read the opinions of the various parties.
Having a few uni degrees across a range of disiplines, I cannot be accused as being anti-professional, however I do feel that there is a role for the amatuer.
Have a look at the following site http://www.ozatwar.com/ and you will see what an amatuer can achieve. This site is absolutely the most interesting site I know detailing the history of aviation during WW2 in the Australian region.
I personally know the originator of the site, Peter Dunn, he is a professional engineer with an electricity transmission utility here in Brisbane, Australia.
If you go to the site and don’t spend less than 3-6 hours looking then you have missed out.
All of this information and history has been collected by amateurs and makes the achievements of professional historians pale into insignificience.
cheers
Ross
Proctor VH-AHYBritish vs USA,
I think you will find that in Britian, you don’t own your body, the crown does and hence they can do with it what they will. Britian did have have a feudal past which the USA did not. I think there are still plenty of vestiges of that past present in todays laws.
I guess in the USA you actually own your body.
cheers
Proctor VH-AHYJDK
Even you are behind the times, I think they all are EU’ized now and anyone from the EU can live anywhere else they want – hence my earlier posting. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
Bit like here in Good Old Ozz being a “Banana Bender vs a “Cockroach” vs a “Rabbit” vs “Sandgroper” vs a “Crow Eater” – We are all Australian.
cheers
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