MP703PS I nearly forgot, what will be your practial choise for the next decades?!
The Hawk or Gripen would fit Austria much better IMHO.
The question isn’t whether the EF Typhoon is a good fighter, it is. The question is whether Austria needs such a capable fighter. Some argue yes, some (me included) argue no, but it’s a legitimate and fair debate to have, without in any way criticising the actual aircraft which is indeed a very capable machine.
Exactly my point. What I don´t understand is how the Typhoon will fulfil the requirements of the Austrian AF any better than the Hawk or the Gripen would? Do they need the payload or the range of the Typhoon? Can anyone explain why the Typhoon was chosen if not for political reasons?
MP703So the Austrian newspaper had no problems to show the costs per flying-hour for every fighter to their readers, did they?! Modular built and higher lifetime for every module related to a much higher lifetime did not matter?! I get the feeling that you are not intrest in all details. The Gripen is similar in design and had been my obvious choise without the radar issue and some American content. But we keep in mind that a newbuilt Austrian AD-fighter will be operated till 2040 at least and its modular avionics will keep it “for ever young”.
Whohaa…. Sens, please don´t get me wrong. I don´t suggest that I know better than you or anyone else here on this forum! I only say what I believe to be “common sense” IMHO.
As a response to your question about Austrian newspapers: The Austrian newspaper “Der Standard” actually pointed out the issue of operating cost of the EF2000 in an article recently where the minister of defense had to defend the deal. That is why I posted the comment earlier in this thread. According to this newspaper for instance they say that “Es gibt in der öffentlichen Meinung und auch im Parlament eine klare Mehrheit gegen die Eurofighter.” (06/10/06) Maybe they are just lying, I don´t know for sure.
The Gripen or F-16 would also be overkill in my opinon but they would at least be much less expensive to operate than the EF2000.
MP703Assumptions based on what?
The Austrians bought from a matured Block and theirs are limited to the least demanding A:A role similar to the Swiss F-18+.
I can not see the intrest of EADS in the near-by Manching for “hangar queens”. Just the contrary with marketing purposes in mind. The Austrian EFs will be reference examples for future customers. The Austrian experiences with that will show, if all promises are fullfilled and a EF is a worthwhile investment by that. None is forced to buy the EF except the AFs from the builders, which will not be a good yardstick related to that.
I believe you missed my point. I don´t have any doubts that EADS will fulfil the contract in terms of off set deals and so on. I actually belive that EADS has more interest in Austria as a reference customer than exporting just 18 airframes.
Anyway, no matter what the EF2000 will cost a lot to operate. My assumpition that it will be a hangar queen is based on the fact that the Austrians seem to think that the 12 F-5s are so difficult to maintain and expensive that they wish to get rid of them. I doubt that the Austrians will find the EF2000s less demanding to operate.
My impression from reading Austrian newspapers is that the general public is VERY anti EF2000 minded to say the least. Many Austrians seem to think the purchase is “madness”, a lot of fuzz for 18 aircraft…
MP703Ok. I must admit I don´t know the maintenancy policy of Swedish Air Force. I doubt however that Sweden is not depending on the US for maintenance. Apparently the price of two C-17s is 4 billion SEK and the total cost of the deal is estimated to be 10 billion SEK. I cannot comment on what is included in this package.
– You ask will the new government increase the budget accordingly? Ho Ho! When was the last time Sweden’s military budget was increased for anything? And what will the man on the Stockholm tram reply when you tell him you want SEK6.38 billion to buy two aircraft…
What would the man on tram think? Well some will like it other will not I suppose. Does it matter, as long as there is a political majority supporting the deal? At the end of the day it is all about politics and who knows what politicians are up to? We´ll see who is right…
MP703It all depends on where Flygvapnet can get the money from. Remember, two C-17s will cost about $500 million to acquire and then you have to operate them (which means joining a US support and maintenance organisation that may come as a shock to Sweden).
The Swedish Air Force is currently leasing an Ukrainian AN-124, that costs almost as much to lease as the two C-17s would cost to operate a year. As far as I know the Swedish Air Force operates about 7-8 C-130s, which are maintained in the US. Why would a US maintenance organisation come as a shock to Sweden, I doubt that they are that naive?
Don’t think for one second that you can lease them and save money – the UK experience shows what a joke that idea is.
Exactly my point!
As things stand right now there is no way that the Swedish military budget can afford this much money for two aircraft – on the other hand, the Nordic Battlegroup simply cannot function without airlift…
As far as i know the Nordic Battle Group consists of other Nordic countries that lack proper air transport capabilities. Those countries will probably also use these C-17s. The funding is a matter of priorities I guess. Is it not possible that the new right wing goverment will increase the budget accordingly?
So, someone somewhere has to make a decision as to where national priorities lie and find the funding accordingly.
That “someone somewhere” would probably be the new government!
YS
MP703An easy maintenance was a requirement of the EF2000 IIRC, so the difference with an old F-5 shouldn’t be that wide.
From what I have heard the F-5 is a type that the austrians want to get rid of ASAP…
MP703As I understand Austrian EF2000 will not be equipped with A2G missiles but only A2A missiles? Is that some kind of post WW2 legal restriction of some kind? Wouldn´t the austrians have more use for the EF2000 in the strike role? I mean, even with A2A missiles do the austrians really have the proper training to engage in live dogfights with an intruder? If the mission of the Austrian air wing is air policing the Eurofighter seems to be a very expensive overkill.
I agree on that. But the problem was the Gripen offer was only 3% below Eurofighter offer and the F-16 did not meet 2 requirements. The choice of Typhoon was correct in its form.
Still the EF2000 is several times more expensive to operate than the alternatives. For an air wing with a very small budget operating cost is important. I wouldn´t be surprised if the several of austrian EF2000 will be hangar queens because of this.
And the only reason now that the Conservatives hold on to the EF2000 like for dear life is a big barrel of pork. A huge barrel. And shall I tell you folks how the EF2000 was selected back then? By a single phonecall (won’t tell who called whom) late at evening.
Either the pope or Gerhard Schröder I guess? :rolleyes: Seriously, I think that politics must have been the reason behind this decision. It doesn´t make sense otherwise.
MP703The what? I can’t find anything about that on Google.
I guess he is talking in hypothetical terms?
MP703Sorry, I thought you were aware of the England-Sweden game on June 20th?
MP703If Belgium can’t afford the JSF, they should work togeter with Denmark, Norway and SAAB on the new version of the Gripen: Gripen – Bel
The question is -why would they need the JSF?
MP703I´m afraid I can´t be there but I´m looking forward to see some pictures!
BTW, off topic but where will your sympathies be on June 20th? 🙂
MP703P.S:No,it is not strange,they ve been selling weapons to both sides in the past 30 years,just like USA has.Nothing wrong with some bln $ contracts.
Ok, you´re right I should have said cynical :rolleyes: However I´m pretty sure that Dassault would be as happy as EADS to sell aircraft to Turkey as well. I´m not not sure if SAAB is allowed to sell aircraft to Turkey though?
BTW, this moral aspect of the military aircraft industry is hardly ever discussed on this forum I´m afraid!
MP703Isn´t it strange that EADS if offering the Typhoon to Turkey right after such a hostile incident? If the governments of Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy were responsible they should put pressure on Turkey and Greece to negotiate this conflict in civilized manners before they offer to sell the Typhoon.
What´s the Greek reaction to EADS offer to sell fighters to Turkey? Does it mean that Greece also feel they must buy the Typhoon or will they boycott EADS?
MP703Being neighbours I think its Interesting to compare the situations of the Belgian and the Dutch AFs. While the Netherlands is heavily involved in the JSF, Belgium is not planning for a F16 successor in the near future. While the NATO committment for Denmark, Norway and Belgium seems to 48 aircraft the Netherlands are planning for some 80(?) aircraft. Is the Dutch really that more eager to be good friends with the US than the Belgians?
It seems to me that the Netherlands like many European JSF partners has joined the JSF program because of political considerations rather than actual defense needs.
MP703Outside of a fleet of aircraft for logistical support and SAR does Belgium actually need an air force? I mean, it is facing friendly nations on all sides and doesn’t face the threat of invasion so why does ot need a fighter force?
Well the same could be said about for instance the Netherlands, Denmark or Switzerland. Does the Netherlands really need the JSF more than it´s neighbour? Still Belgium will need a fighter force for air policing and international operations within NATO.
I´m surprised of the lack of interest in this topic, are there any Belgians here who can shed some more light on this?
Sign In
