AlEnglish people (we don’t hear too much from NI and Wales on the subject), and a lot of Scots, seem preoccupied by the personality and appearance of Alex Salmond, which is a great shame. So many times I’ve heard “I’d vote for the SNP if he wasn’t in charge!”.
To me, Alex Salmond is just the right man to get us independence – I can’t think of anyone else in politics (north or south of the border) with the same amount of expertise in elements which will be vital in the rebirth of Scotland, like finance, the oil business, and even fishing. Think what you like of him, he knows his stuff, which is why, apart from his wicked sense of humour, every other politician shies away from a direct debate with him.
But once independence comes, his job (and the SNP for that matter) will be over, and politics will settle down to left, centre, and right parties as normal, but I sincerely doubt the right will be called ‘Tories’.
Me, I can’t wait to see all the ‘No’ politicians in the Scottish government, who many Scots will deem traitors and Quislings after independence, try to ingratiate themselves back into power again!
And if the people of Scotland vote ‘No’, I think that they will deeply regret it in time, when things return to the same old same old from distant Westminster, and the main arterial A9 road north of Perth is still the ordinary two lane anachronism in 2075…
AlThis sort of thing was one of the reasons I cut my ties with a local wildlife park many years ago.
My wife and I captive-bred endangered Scottish wildcats as part of an official rearing and release scheme, and I worked very closely with the wildlife park, the Zoological society, and was the ISIS international studbook keeper for the species, the first for many, many years.
Zoologists are a strange breed though, and often they have no interest in individual animals, just the species as a whole. Added to that, wildlife parks have financial considerations – getting punters through the doors, etc.
I would often help feed, or for hours just sit and watch, their pack of Canadian timber wolves. Absolutely fascinating – from memory I think it was around 18 males, females, and cubs.
But then the management decided one day they wanted European wolves instead, so one Sunday morning when the park was closed, a skeleton staff just went out and shot them all…
AlAl – I agree it has little to do with individuals although you have painted the traditional and hackneyed picture of English “toffs” as the media happily describe them. A breed I hasten to add which exists a-plenty north of the border.
That’s part of the trouble, Charlie. I’ve spent most of my life living on big ‘sporting’ estates, mainly because it’s very difficult to buy any sort of rural property up here which isn’t on one. Believe me, feudalism is alive and well on these estates still, from the landowner down through the estate managers, to their low-paid, cap-doffing (but almost entirely lacking in any rights) employees.
After Culloden, only friendly Clan chiefs were taken into the English fold, and given the same respect as southern gentry. Today, they still own large parts of Scotland, but are totally indistinguishable from their English counterparts in speech and dress (wearing red trousers seems to be part of their uniform), which doesn’t go down too well with local people. Their time has long passed, and after independence I hope they will cease to exist.
I’ve had quite a few run-ins with local lairds and their obsequious shooting/fishing employees, mainly due to their high-handed approach to local people, who they just see as a nuisance to be kept out, despite the ‘right to roam’ legislation. The higher they are in their own class-ridden circles, the more Anglicised their speech and manners seems to become. Thankfully the Law isn’t so prepared to protect them unconditionally today.
“Yes, but think of the money it brings to the local economy!” I hear people say. To my mind, in this day and age, money made from killing living creatures for fun or ‘sport’ simply can’t be justified under any circumstances.
Al,
I don’t think Salmond has got the idea wrong, but I do think he is too much of an idealist; he hasn’t properly worked out how he will do it. This is exemplified by the current spats over Europe and the pound, neither of which, it would seem, he envisaged.
Bruce
I don’t believe it’s an oversight on Alex Salmond’s part for one second, Bruce. As you and Salmond both know, nothing is surer to anger a Scot more than a sense of injustice, or being told we can’t do something.
Watch this space…
AlI’ve said it in this forum before, and I’ll say it again. Our fight for independence is nothing to do with hatred for the English, just Westminster.
Personally, I love the English and all they stand for – I even get a lump in my throat when I see the flag of St George waving at the Proms, and think “Good for you!”. But judging from some of the posts on this thread, that sentiment is not reciprocated.
I’m Scottish, and can see no future in a ‘No!’ vote, as it will just mean more of the same scant regard from Westminster for decades. The whole hierarchical system endemic in the UK is just deeply alien to most Scots, from the Queen down through the ‘old money’ landowners, still firmly entrenched in their feudal 19th century hunting/shooting/fishing estates which make up such a large part of my country, the undemocratic House of Lords, to the public schools which seem to spawn so many wet, but fast-tracked, southern politicians. Seeing old photos of Cameron et al in their Eton tails may send you guys south of the border into a rapturous chug, but to us they are simply sickening.
Is it too much to ask to want politicians who actually look after our needs, instead of just power-tripping and lining their own nests?
It’s a shame so many people south of the border look on Scottish independence as a messy divorce – I see it more like a youngster finally having enough strength to leave bad step-parents…
AlSorry, Beny – I’ll try to do better next time!!:dev2:
But seriously, why doesn’t it make sense? Every Commonwealth country has the Queen as Head of State and even THE ( not yours!) Great Leader would have little or no reason to renounce the monarchy especially as it is so deeply enshrined in its noble history. (no, I am not being ironic).
Deeply enshrined in whose history? What the hell have Liz Sax-Coburg und Gotha and Phil Schleswig Holstein Sonderburg Glücksburg got to do with Scotland? And don’t say the Queen Mother – she was about as Scottish as a chapati.
I am English and from London area, so we have no choice but to be “ruled” by Westminster and envy the Scottish who have the chance to have a different way. The worries I would have if I were Scottish or resident in Scotland would be the following.
1)Is there any chance of being part of the EU?, some talk already says no
2)Is there enough manufacturing and oil to sustain the country? Who will trade links be set up with?
3)Could Scotland launch a viable currency if not allowed to use pound or Euro?
4)How much of the UK debt will Scotland be saddled with?
5) What are the plans in terms of taxes, what will I be paying as an independent citizen?
6) What are the plans in terms of future Government? what sort of government structure will be put in place?Good points, but like I said money isn’t everything. Did America cast off British rule because it was going to be financially better off? Or Australia and Canada? Have you ever heard of a nation who has become independent, then asked to be taken back? Even after the last banking crisis, do you hear impoverished countries like Eire asking to restart British rule? Independence, whatever the short or long term financial implications, will be the best thing Scotland ever did.
I’m sure the Scottish government will make lots of mistakes, but they will be OUR mistakes, not made at a distance by politicians who couldn’t care less about us.
When independence comes, just wait to see all these ‘Scottish’ No-voting politicians fight each other for a wee bit of power in the new nation!All in all independence is an exciting option, but without money to sustain a stable economy and country I would fear a Greece or god forbid a Ukraine style problem in the future. At the moment it feels like more questions than answers and I feel Alex Salmond is making a mistake if he does not clarify things before the vote.
So many people cast doubt on Scotland’s ability to ‘make it’ after independence – that’s really quite insulting, considering how many of the world’s most important advances were accomplished by Scottish brains, like penicillin, radar, tv, radio etc. How do other nations manage with so much less going for them?
Exactly – as you say the Scots are voting yes or no without having the faintest idea of the answers to most of those crucial questions. And there is little chance of them having any of the answers either, except they have been told they cannot keep Sterling and are unlikely to be able to join the EU.
Why would the EU deny Scotland membership, if we want it, when they allow in countries like Turkey? In the emergence of any new nation, there will always be a settling-in time of turmoil and uncertainty – it’s to be expected.
And re Shetland – it is Orkney as well and as pointed out already here if they sought any arrangement outside an independent Scotland the Salmond plan would be scuppered below the waterline. I have good friends on both groups of Islands and they would fight the Salmond plan tooth and nail.
There are international rules determining sovereignty when it comes to small islands versus acknowledged historical nations. It’s funny that so many people who are against Scottish independence would back any long shot to try to throw a spanner in the works. It’s just sheer petty spite…
AlWell If Scotland is to keep all the oil revenue, then it’s only fair that they pay the lions share of the national dept, which is how many billions or is it trillions?
Incredible logic.
If England wanted independence, could Scotland keep London? If we take on our share in the national debt, then it follows that we take our share of the national assets, too!
AlRe 59
….”we are a totally different people …”
That’s a strange statement and one that doesn’t square with the facts. From the 2nd and 3rd century A.D, lowland Scotland was settled by ‘overspill’ Anglo Saxon Jutes. This process of invasion and occupation carried on for approximately 1200 years. Assimilation was complete and to-day is remembered principally in the Borders.
Pictish Gaels were left to the picturesque delights of the highlands which, with some percentage of adulteration is still the case.
These historical facts are probably the reason why the Scots will turn their backs on independence.
Two further points: It is obvious from your comments that you are what Private Eye used to call a foamin’ radical. More to the point you appear – judged by your more rabid outbursts – to be extremely right wing which, if true, renders most, if not all of your judgments somewhat suspect.
At times in the past, I have had an occasional brisk and sharp exchange of views with the moderator of this forum. Unlike you and one other – who I won’t bother to mention – I have the greatest value for his plain commonsense and patience and ability to demonstrate these qualities and to bite his tongue in the face of great provocation.
I can’t duck the point that you are perhaps the finest advocate for Scottish independence. Perhaps that is music to your ears.
“Pictish Gaels” – you just made that up, didn’t you? If you had any idea of Scottish history, you would know that the Picts were the offspring of the indigenous hunter-gathering tribes who migrated across the dry area we now call the North Sea to an uninhabited Scotland after the last Ice Age, mostly from Scandinavia, southern Russia, and northern Germany.
Modern DNA analysis shows that the Picts had a unique DNA signature, one only shared with people from the Basque region today. Most Scots with a history going back hundreds of years in eastern Scotland have Pictish DNA, while most folk in the west have Celtic DNA.
The Gaels were Celtic, unlike the Picts, migrating in pre-history from western Gaul, Spain and Portugal through Cornwall and Ireland, then to western Scotland.
In the last 1000 years, the Celtic Gaels dominated the west coast and Highlands of Scotland (which is why Gaelic is still alive there), while the offspring of the Picts remained in the east coast and lowlands.
“These historical facts” Don’t make me laugh – you obviously have no idea of the facts, and make them up to suit your argument – so why should anyone take you seriously?
AlNot really Al no.
If you look at what the English EEZ would be with an arc swung off from Berwick you’ll see that a good proportion of the oil is also in the English EEZ.
Where do you think most of the oil rigs are? The Scottish EEZ is highlighted in blue…
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Al…much more arrogance than the idea that you can walk away from the Union and do better on you’re own solely on the basis of resources that were once shared.
Or the arrogance of the Tories squandering those shared resources during the Thatcher era by using the bulk of the generated wealth to totally remodel run-down London and the south east of England? Yeah, that made everyone else in the UK glow with pride…
AlAnd Salmond so entirely epitomises the breed.
Is that breed as in ‘half breed’? Are you aware of how zenophobic and ‘master race’ that sounds?
AlI’ve checked quickly through the whole thread and can’t see a mis-spelling of ‘Scotland’ anywhere
Moggy
See post #55 before it’s deleted, changed, etc…
Al’s long post exemplifies the hypersensitive, tetchy response typical, in my fairly extensive experience North of the Border, to any criticism of their cause or of the Great Leader.
Hypersensitive and tetchy? Independence for Scotland will be THE greatest change in the UK since the Union – isn’t it a subject worth being serious about?
Sadly Al and many I know like him have fallen for Salmond’s rhetoric and bluster.
We have fallen for no rhetoric or bluster – just made up our own minds. In my case, I’ve been for independence and the SNP since the early 1970s, and to me Alex Salmond just personifies the cause, and the solution.
I have a simple question for Al. Do you agree that anyone’s citizenship should be allowed to be changed without that person having a say?
I’m sure you’ll have the choice of citizenship either way, if you are a Scot living in England, or English living in Scotland. If you want to be a British citizen, then stay in the remaining part of the UK.
So you’re quite happy with the SNP’s oil grab?.
That’s like saying I lent you a perfectly good car, now you’ve let it run out of petrol, and you’re miffed I want it back. Those were Scottish waters before the Union, and will be afterwards.
In a few words
1) A solution to the West Lothian issue
2) The unlikelihood of the Labour Party ever gaining control of the Westminster parliament and hence the economy ever again
So Moggy – you’re quite happy with the thought that the Tories will be perpetually in power?3) It relieves the rest of the UK of all liabilities for the two major, and faltering banks.
Why would the UK be relieved? They may have ‘Scotland’ in their names, and are based there, but in reality they are very little to do with us anymore – 80% of the Royal Bank of Scotland is owned by the UK government, and the Bank of Scotland, HBOS, was taken over by Lloyds.4) Whilst currently subsidies paid to Scotland roughly equate to taxes received from N Sea Oil, this will not continue to be in balance as production declines
5) The lavish spending of the current Scottish government – social spending per head in Scotland is 13% greater than in the remainder of the UK – will no longer fall on non-Scottish taxpayers
Lavish spending? You make the higher social spending sound like a bad thing. Better the money spent on our citizens than on follies like Trident!6) The Scots will apparently be much happier outside the UK – Who are we to deny them of that happiness?
More sneering contemptuousness…
Moggy
I am an avid supporter of Scots independence and sincerely hope the vote goes the right way later in the year.
Moggy
See above…
AlAs expected in this forum, most of the replies to this thread are littered with sneering contemptuous one-liners, intended as racial put-downs, which is one of the reasons we want independence. Some of you can’t even spell Scotland, yet deign to pass comment.
And it’s OK to do this, because a moderator is one of the guilty.
Reading these replies, you’d think that all Britain’s wealth, gold reserves, armed forces materiel, and other national assets were purely under English ownership. Not true – Scotland has paid it’s fair share of taxes for hundreds of years, so is due that percentage of the assets as her own – although putting a blow torch to the crown jewels might be a step too far.
Anyone who thinks Scotland can’t become a thriving, prosperous nation is deluded. Having similar populations of around five million, we are directly comparable to countries like Norway and Denmark, who have been recently voted two of the happiest nations on Earth. Norway, in particular, is the fourth wealthiest nation in the world, according to Forbes, simply due to oil production. It’s population pay high taxes, but they don’t actually mind, because they know they are being well served, and that the money is spent making their lives and surroundings very pleasant.
International law is quite strict about territorial waters, and has robust guidelines for the definition of national boundaries. A whopping 98% of the oil fields (and future oil fields) would be in Scottish waters – and even the 6000 square miles of southern North Sea which Tony Blair and the treacherous Donald Dewar annexed and redrew for England in 1999 would have to be given back. It’s the law, you see.
While current oil fields are beginning to decrease in production, it’s estimated that there is far more oil still there than has been taken out – it’s just more inaccessible, and will take 21st technology to retrieve, but the main point is that it is there, like having money in the bank.
But it’s not all about money – we are a totally different people, having to live with decisions of whatever Westminster party comes to power. Tory Party policies in particular are a complete anathema to most Scots – we view their outdated (but alive!) class system, and feudal money-grabbing private ownership of everything with complete disdain. It’s obscene to spend so much money on things like Trident, when the National Health Service is in such poor shape, and our own elderly and poor are written off. All because ‘Great’ Britain wants to sit at the top table!
To me, independence is an incredible chance to get things right, to rid ourselves of successive governments who simply look on the mass of tax-payers as a money cow to be cynically milked, to emerge as a caring society where people, not status or power, comes first. It is possible, too – just ask the Danes and Norwegians!
And all these so funny remarks about Alex Salmond and his deputy – GROW UP! He is one of the most able politicians of our generation, which is why the ‘No’ campaign, and Cameron in particular, are petrified to take him on. Salmond and the SNP have done far more for Scotland in the few years they have been in power than Westminster has done in centuries.
And it would be a mistake to think that Alex Salmond doesn’t know exactly what he is doing – do you really think that keeping the same currency (and Royal Family come to that) is the long-term plan? Every move he makes, or doesn’t make, is carefully planned to show up and side-step ‘Perfidious Albion’.
AlI suspect there were a lot of ex-WW2 airmen still serving into the late 1970s and early 1980s.
I joined the Civil Service in 1975, working in a little office next to RAF Kinloss ATC, and RAF and NATO aircrew visited us for briefings on a daily basis.
One of my bosses at the time (still alive) was a Lancaster tail gunner during WW2, and on this particular day he was briefing a gaggle of orange flight-suited German Navy F-104G pilots.
An old RAF Devon pilot of Polish origin, with compulsory Jimmy Edwards moustache, came in at the same time for a brief, and paced back and forth behind the Germans, muttering oaths under his breath.
When the Germans left, my boss quipped that Devon pilot didn’t seem too impressed with our NATO allies, to which the Flt Lt replied “Personally, I used to try to kill as many of those b******s as I could!”, to which my boss retorted “Me too!”…
AlTo advance in my career I had to achieve the equivalent of two years university maths, even covering aerodynamic calculations – but I’m glad I’d never heard (until now) of this seemingly pointless base stuff!
AlTo advance in my career I had to achieve the equivalent of two years university maths, even covering aerodynamic calculations – but I’m glad I’d never heard (until now) of this seemingly pointless base stuff!
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