It is safe to assume you flew combat missions in the F-4?
What model did you fly and what were you tasked with?
I flew in the Cambodia war that took place from March to August of 1973. Ubon squadrons had F-4Ds, and there were some squadrons from the US that had F-4Es. We flew both models.
I was in the 497th squadron that was tasked with AC-130 gunship escort as well as day CAS. I flew both missions.
Nope, I think that’s correct the way it is, actually.
I wasn’t referring to the wing trailing edge.
I thought from the early pictures that this thing has a horizontal stabilizer…now I see that these are more like ventral fins.
On the A/G environment, I agree that the F-104 was, or supposedly, was more suited with it being a multi-role aircraft, of which was planned from the start.
The F-104 was designed as a multi-role aircraft “from the start”?
Some people have been known to spit coffee on their computer monitors when reading statements like that.
ahhh…. sorry mate… thought you are talking about wing tip cuts
I’m sure it’s angled trailing edge….and my early calculation showed the angle is around 10.5degree
My prediction drawing’s here 😀
The trailing edge of the horizontal stabilizer seems to be angled forward, not aft.
Where did you fly F-4s and A-10?
F-4: Ubon RTAFB Thailand 1973-1974, Soesterberg AB 1974-1976.
A-10: RAF Bentwaters 1982-1986, NAS New Orleans 1986-1988.
Wish I had flown it!
So you had F-104 weather most of the time 😀
Nah!! Had enough of that in 6 years of European time in the F-4 and A-10.
@alfakilo:
In which service you flew the F 104 ?? Germany?? Luftwaffe or Marineflieger??
My father flew out of Lechfeld, starting with the f 84 before transitioning to the 104.
In the US, at Luke AFB, training the GAF pilots.
Here’s another part, where, i guess out of fear of some mechanical failure during landing that would cause the aircraft to take the “usual” “too late to react” attitude, they were dropping their bombs before returning home.
The small practice bombs that he mentioned were typically carried in a centerline dispenser. There were no restrictions on landing with this…this was normal procedure.
The nuclear practice bombs were a different matter. These were typically carried on the centerline and required different landing procedures…takeoff flaps and increased landing speeds. Depending on landing conditions (runway length, surface condition), it may have been wiser to jettison the store rather than return with it. Doable, not dangerous, but may not be practical.
I am not a pilot, but i noticed some points:
1) The unusually small wing, was forcing to high speeds always, even in landing. In case of problem, this kills you easier.
When compared to earlier era fighters such as the F-84 and F-86 (which is what the Greek AF flew before the F-104), the F-104 did operate at “higher” speeds. But “higher” doesn’t necessarily mean “too high”.
Unless, of course, the pilot’s experience level is with slower speeds…and then in some cases, the higher speeds may exceed the pilot’s level of proficiency. Most of us upgraded to fighters from lesser performing aircraft…and we did it without much of a problem. Did some fail to handle these increased conditions? Yes. Such is life. Speed by itself doesn’t kill. Pilot error as the result of failing to keep up with those speeds will however.
Again, due to the small wing, the flap’s functionality was becoming crucial. If they failed for mechanical reasons, or if the pilot “forgot” one of these “flap tricks”, he was dead (like the one that never managed to get out of the dive mentioned before or his Wing Commander).
The F-104 did not have any “flap tricks”. It did have operating procedures which, if ignored or forgotten, could put the pilot at risk…but that is true of any aircraft.
Let’s just put it this way…there wasn’t anything lethal about the F-104 design. For its time, it went through the same teething problems of any major leap forward in technology and capability…afterburning engine, engine nozzle design, advanced avionics, higher operating speeds, etc. These problems were sorted out over time…at the cost of accidents and lives…this is the price we pay for moving forward.
The tendency to dive immediately instead of gliding without engine power, was again probably fatal, especially in combination with the initial C2 ejection seat (the case of the first 2 instructors that had C2 seats).
The airplane did not “dive” immediately without engine power. Been there, done that. Any aircraft will descend if the engine poops out. Did the F-104 have a steeper glide angle and speed than earlier fighters? Absolutely. In the event of a power loss, did the pilot have to make the correct decisions in minimum time? Absolutely. Did some pilots fail to do this? Absolutely. Sometimes Darwin’s Theory is a bitch.
Add the psychological factor to the pressure on the pilot. What kind of psychology and concentration one has when he gets “guidelines” to be on alert on take off, on alert on landing and to have one hand on ejection lever and after a while see your instructors get killed one by one?
The “procedures” you mentioned are unfamiliar to me. Given the time frame of these remarks (early in the F-104 years of service), it sounds like those pilots had some legitimate concerns.
If they couldn’t deal with those concerns, then there is always the door.
But that’s just my opinion of an “amateur”.
And you are entitled to it. Opinion is OK, as long as it is informed opinion. There is much more to this subject than meets the eye, particularly when the viewer lacks experience in the subject.
I will tell you what i think…
Well said. I agree with you.
…but if i had to choose a “team” for F104 vs F4, i would choose the F4…
And so would I. The F-104 was a nifty little jet, but I would take the extra engine, additional crewmember, and greater load capability of the F-4 every time.
Most of the article (in greek) is from narration of ex F104 pilot.
Have you heard the expression “A good workman never blames his tools”?
I recognize some of the issues that this pilot was complaining about. When I was a F-104 weapons school instructor, one of the major tasks we had was to teach experienced F-104 pilots how to take advantage of the jet’s capabilities. Often that meant getting rid of a lot of bad habits and thinking.
The problems that he mentioned with radar acquisition, better turning opponents, and ground attack methods were all easily addressed. It was no secret that a good number of F-104 pilots flew the jet poorly. The fact that they did is only a reflection of their abilities, not that of the aircraft.
I thought of the HPC centreline tank for the F-4.
OK. The HPC tank still has airspeed restrictions (660KIAS vs 600KIAS for the other tank model). It is still limited to 5 gs (empty or full) when subsonic (where maneuvering engagements take place). If you want to take advantage of the increased g limit when supersonic (6.5g), then you have the same maneuvering capabilities of a supersonic F-104.
Take the tank off…your point will have more validity.
Surely, in the strike mission with a limited load the F-104 was up to the F-4. On the other hand for air-to-air the F-4 with a centreline tank, the recesses AIM-7s and the AIM-9s was at an advantage to the F-104 with 4 AIM-9s.
Yes and no.
Better radar, as long as the fight isn’t in the weeds.
More missiles, how good depends on the model.
More fuel…you didn’t allow the F-104 to have external tanks.
Less speed, the tank limits the indicated to 600KIAS.
Less g, the tank limits the g to 5 when empty, 3 when full.
You point would be better if you deleted the centerline tank.
The endurance in a dogfight does not depend on 1g drag alone. The F-4 probably is a more efficient turner (a comparison of E-M charts at 1, 3 and 5g should unveil that, I assume the F-104G pretty much similar in 1g-SEP, but at disadvantage at 5g-SEP).
The numbers all depend on the parameters and type of jet. What model, what altitude, what configuration, etc.
At low altitudes, the F-104 numbers were more competitive as long as the pilot stayed above 400KIAS. As altitude went up or speeds decreased below 400KIAS, then the F-4 had the advantage.