Sameer, you do make me smile.

When India gets the same social problems we in Europe are experiencing precisely because of the ever-widening gap between the well paid and the remainder of the population, you will look back on these posts and cringe.

As a starter, some of the highest wages in the UK used to be in IT. That particular industry has been devastated wages-wise by outsourcing and similar factors – what makes you think that India will keep wages that “are too high for lower level jobs”? Surely those high wages will make it attractive for Indian businesses to outsource those jobs to, say, China, thereby bringing the wages down again?

I was lucky enough, and interested enough, to do some economics at university to go along with the more immediately useful software engineering, and can spot an unsustainable trend that is going to cause massive social upheaval sooner or later. A pretty smart bloke once said that “If a foreign country can supply us with a commodity cheaper than we ourselves can make it, better buy it of them with some part of the produce of our own industry, employed in a way in which we have some advantage”. The problem is, if you outsource everything, what industry do you have left with which to pay for the imported goods or services? And if everybody goes to the lowest bidder, what about quality? And what do you think those left unemployed will do about the situation? Self-interest drives so much of economics, and the self-interest of somebody pushed out of a job is to fight against the situation that pushed him out. It is not likely to be a pretty fight.

Finally I wonder in what school you learnt economics, i just reread your last para, YOU CANNOT OUTSOURCE EVERYTHING, IF INDIA HAS A COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE IN BASKET OF GOOD X, THEN ENGLAND WILL HAVE A COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE IN BASKET OF GOOD Y, ITS A MATHEMATICAL AND FACTUAL RELATIONSHIP for Christ’s sakes. Europe still has a pool of high skilled people, America even more, I wonder what you guys are really scared of, you will never loose the 1000000 of jobs you fear you will, stop listening to idiotic politicians and lobbies, Europe and the west in general is still much much much more competitive that the rest of the world, you people are scared of nothing, just reform your inefficient system.

There are a number of emerging ultra low-wage economies in the ex-Soviet republics to the north-west of India that could very well bring Damien’s words home to Sameer – and sooner rather than later.

Pride so often comes before a fall…… :rolleyes:

I wonder if you read my post in the first place, sarcasm is nice but it should be backed up and if ou did not get it the first time, i want these lower paying jobs to eventually move out of India, that is GOOD THING NOT A BAD THING. :rolleyes: and as far as these higher paying jobs, if India does loose some in the future, it will be because of bad retraining by the Govt, this is unlikely, most Indians are quite competitive, the world is competitive, you compete or you get left behind, I am not going to lower my standard of living because a few people who study art history want to keep low paying jobs in the UK or in India in the future, everyone must retrain

One wonders if anyone around here has spent any time looking at the East Asian miracle based on free trade AND STEALING YOUR MANUFACTURING JOBS, BTW AT THAT TIME MANUFACTURING WAS NOT THAT LOW END, guess the west crumbled and i guess East Asia is crumbling now that some of these jobs are leaving….. :rolleyes: nope sorry they are still competitive.

Damien

First off the average wage rate in China is much higher than it is in India and if jobs do get outsourced to say Africa from India one day, I will not come back here, I will be very happy because that wold mean that Indian wages are too high for lower level jobs.

You talk about IT trend to India , these jobs you argue being hi end, there isno statistical evidence of any trend, a SE prof conducted this very study and found no such trend, if you in deed have regression estimates of the same, please do share them with me, I would be very happy to see this trend. The world is increasingly competitive and yes youare right, there is a gap in the west, there is a gap in India too but this is not free trade’s fault that there is a gap in England between highly skilled labor and lower skilled labor, your Government should have taken care of that, stop voting for idiots is the saying. Why is it that I barely see any Brit, native Brit in grad school, its not because British students are stupid, its ebcause your Government is not supporting the retraining necesarry for Britishers to compete and also to decrease te gap that you talk about, i wonder how much of that increasing gap is actually due to immigration itself of high skilled labor, people should not blame free trade for bad governence.

By the way the reason why I bothered to post on this otherwise sad thread (the title is a sad generalization of the very successful outsourcing phenomenon) was because of the title in question, Indian call centres are growing fast due to demand, everything is demand driven, to generalize with a title Indian call centres is really sad and innacurate in nature, there are around 3.4 million cals being made each day, ever heard of statistical significance and random sample? Again this is wy people should stop studing art history and move upthat value chain.

Sameer, I am already feeling the effect of free trade here.. Looks like we have to move to India to get a decent salary these days.. 😡

More jobs have been lost to the business cycle than to free trad since the 1970s, it is hard to find jobs anywhere these days, the engine of the world, the US has slowed down due to Osama and company. bTW FREE TRADE HAS CREATED MORE JOBS THAN IT HAS DESTROYED AND THESE JOBS HAVE BEEN AT A HIGHER LEVEL WITH A HIGHER PAY, see how much money high paying fields such as finance, biotech, medecine etc pay you, try robotics but most people do not retrain prooperly and that is the RESPONSABILITY FO THEIR GOVERNMENTS AND NOT poor Indians picking up the phone trying to earn a living.

As for Dobbs, he is wrong on most things but i understand his fustration, free trade is only good if both sides do not impose unfiar rules.

China and India are catching up quickly, Europe better ratify that constitution and get the EU moving but nooo most people are too blinded by nationalism and a false belief that their standard of living will continue to improve even if they fail to remain competitive :rolleyes:

No, there are many people joining me there thank you very much, you lads better start retraining quickly, try robotics, try financia engineering, the ones who do not loose out and that is too bad for them but then again…..

there are certain IT jobs from India which got outsourced to China, yes but not because of wages but because of marketing.

But all points to caution, the only thing the west has to do is to make sure that countries engaged in free trade do not impose quotas on western goods, that would then be unfair, that seems to be a problem today, take China for example. Western goods must be allowed to compete in developing markets in stages, China is ready, India will soon be ready, in stead of complaining and wanting customer service jobs back, Europeans and Americans should try to make sure that theier govts make sure the WTO has more power to impose free trade rules.

I think that the peoblem is that most people who are against free trade never took a single economics course at a high level, there is a reason why inflation is so low in Europe and thewest compared to the rest of the world, free trade is a big reason why. Wages in India are growing fast, there will eventually be a convergence of wages and that is a good thing, this is what free trade does, it did it for South Korea and company and it will happen again, it will soon be ASfrica’s turn and i am sure that 20 or 40 years moe probably, down the road, Indian morons will be complaining about the thick Senegalese accents too but humans are too slow to adapt and stupid too sometimes.

Again stop taking arts in college and then complain that Indians are taking your jobs, this world is competitive, THE ENTIRE WORLD has to compete, one simply has to look at how the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs to East Asia has benefited the west, free trade has worked, only idiots would think otherwise but the world is full of those.

Sameer – will you have the same viewpoint in 20 years when Indian jobs are being outsourced to cheaper Chinese/African/Belgian* workers? When every wage is a pittance, everybody will be equally poor. Sounds like a socialist paradise doesn’t it…

* joke

Absolutely, I actually want these jobs to leave India eventually, that would mean that Indian wages are too high for lower level jobs, that would mean that we have reached the level of developed nations 20 years before, surely morons will complain just like they do in Europe but these jobs will go to Africa and I hope they do for them it will be good and for me it will be better, wonder why laptops cost 400 US dollars now? :rolleyes: