But empire its all about hegemony, and agressive hegemony in a way that You cannot build empire whitout braking other hegemonies,a nd doing that it leads to wars…and when you have destroyed all rivaling powers, there alwyas finds neighbours that have their own hegemony and will not let it go whitout figth. And if theorethically you ahve conquered all and there isent diversing elements from societyes vertical dimensions (other societyes, civilications) left, the horizontal elements (classes, castes) beguns to couse stress as their nature is to couse stress.

But you keep on fighting and you will inevitably lead to your own fall. That’s why empires fall. You fight too much and you overextend.

ROFL. On last years arguments, I clearly remeber that you affirmately said that WS-10A was ready and already flying. You also said that China will not be importing AL-31 engines as WS-10 A is superior to the Russian ones. besides all J-10 and J-11 new produces will feature that. Now you tell us that this issue will be sorted? Crobato, how many lies you will cook up? (for someone calls EPOC not credible 😮 )

I mentioned the WS-10A being flying and yes it is already flying since 2002 under its own power. They are trying to lengthen the reliability record and the engine has already passed a four month durability test. Power generation versions are already being offered. The Chinese are gunning for a 1500 flight hour MTBO on the WS-10A, while the AL-31F only has 1000 hours and usually don’t even meet those hours.

As the WS-10A has greater thrust than the AL-31F, the advantage is obvious (13200kg vs 12500kg). Why do you think the Russians are in a hurry offering more powerful AL-31F variants to China?

The fact that China is only importing engines means that it is the only thing they need to make a J-11 now, but then 150 engines seem kind of low, well too low because you have to leave spares for the existing fleet of roughly 300 Flankers. Heck, that’s not even enough for spares for the existing fleet. For sure China is not importing kits nor are they importing even Su-30s now, and yet they are continuing to build new planes. Even in 2005, a year after the kit importation stopped, a new regiment converted to the J-11.

With that many Flankers, they must run down engines like there is no tomorrow, and yet they keep flying and producing more planes. Every season they seem to have one major combined arms joint exercise in addition to standard training. You cannot rule out the possibility that the WS-10A has already been deployed since deployment and continued development to improve the engine can actually be two seperate issues and performed independently.

Erm… they have as this is the first me they have exported an engine with TVC compatability. Chinese engine are standard produces. I suppose your “thinking” is flawed as usual.

Does not mean crap. It would still have a dated conditional warranty that expires in time that would say, you fix your faults, I fix if our faults. After a warranty you would have to sign a seperate service contract in which you pay a fixed fee for the services, but not including the parts which will be invoiced seperately to you.

Don’t give me that baloney that the Russians love you so much, they are willing to lose their shirts for you. They are in business to survive, not to be taken advantage of.

Man you are really precious. You think I dont understand cannibalization and then later in the same post you concede that perhaps the IAF does not need to cannibalize like the Chinese have to.

Wrong. I don’t think you need to cannibalize on the new planes but certainly you have to do so in the older ones. Don’t misquote me.

And yes, frankly given your attitude here, you don’t understand cannibalization. If you think it’s some kind of degradement, you must be an adolescent. Like I said, it happens in all air forces. Even though they don’t say it, and the PLAAF does not say it either, it is assumed logically they do because that is common around the world.

And then since you are loosing ground you now want to talk about the “broader sense of the IAF fleet” and since you have been schooled about the flying hours maintained by IAF flanker drivers you want to dilute your initial pontification about “both countries” and talk about the whole fleet. Riiiiiiiiiight. We stick to you initial allegation and pontification about the flanker fleet hours and cannibalization for “both countries.”

Wrong. I have always been talking about the broader sense. You just want to localize it on the Su-30MKI. Why did you think I brought up the examples in the first place. The general topic we are discussing is to justify the 240-300 flight hours you claim your pilots are getting and I am disputing that because of your operability rates. That is not singularized into one particular plane type.

First of all when I said the engines are grounded thats coz they can afford to swap out engines given their high sparing factor. So the failed engine was replaced by another one and the failed engine was serviced back to warrentied life by vendor (which is where all the he said -she said issues came up). In the case of the Mig-29’s even the spare engines failed en-mass which severely affected the operation of the sqd and there was no one to turn to thanks to all the turmoil in Russia. NOTHING of this sort happened with the No.24 planes. The sqd was fully operational, pilots were happily flogging the Su-30K, but in the technical areas there were several polite (ummm…less than polite) disagreements going on with a bunch of failed AL-31Fs.

Which still does not exempt you from significant downtime.

One of the things you BS me is the FOD issue. If your nicks are caused by FOD, then it’s not an engine design problem and you can use your spares. Problem solved. If the nicks are caused by factory problems, it is very likely your spares would also be affected too, in which case would need to be inspected or withdrawn. And if it is a serious technical problem on the part of the factory, the factory would have to make a design go around, manufacture the new engines before sending them to you again and that would take up much more time.

It’s amazing how you keep posting contradictions.

The sparing factor is as high as 7 engines per plane for the MKI fleet, there are no references for the K, but given that the K were far from being grounded when I was there (a week or so after your famous article) I dont see how what seems to afflict the PLAAF has anything to do with the IAF.

Man, you base your experiences because you were there only for a freaking week? The planes have careers that span your years.

A sparing factor of 7 engines per plane by the way, is abnormal and extremely high. You don’t spare that much unless you really think your engines are so crap.

LIke I said before if you had kept your broucher based opinion to the PLAAF flankers I might have commierserated with you, but since you are hell bent on dragging the IAF to the level of chinese technocrats who cant seem to get the vendor to keep up to their side of the bargain (that is assuming it as even listed in the first place) it gets a bit…oracleish.

Don’t give you are so superior crap. Frankly I have not seen any news report that you have transferred that much engines. That’s well over 150 engines which amounts to over estimated 300 million dollars. just for spares and that would have caught the news. Mind you, one of the problems the Russian factories face is to produce enough engines for both Indian and Chinese requirements. Build that much engines in a small time possible, and you’re rushing production that can only lead to quality problems later on.

And don’t give me that crap that Chinese technocrats can’t manage Sukhoi. Sukhoi understands they got a lot more income at stake in China compared to India, and if Sukhoi fails, China will simply stop buying from Sukhoi and make their own Flankers, which by the way, they are so doing already. Let us not forget China already has their own engines, which even Salyut believes will only be deployed in a matter of time. If Sukhoi and Salyut doesn’t clean up, they get replaced.

And whats this nonsense about 3 years warrenties. Once again please speak for the PLAAF and not for the IAF. They have some very explicitly laid out criteria of what constitutes a warrenty period and what is and is not covered under warrenty. The russians will be in Lohegaon for a verrry long time….oh thats right you fly your precious planes back to russia to change a lightbulb….no such love for poor IAF planes they have to get themselves back into shap right there in Lohegaon….after all the IAF insisted in that nasty little thing called as “complete maintainance infrastructure in India”.

So once again…you can keep harping about your flankers being cannibalized or grounded. Please dont drag the IAF into such dire predicaments just coz your ppl dont have the warewithall to deal with complex technologies.

Wow man, don’t give that you act so superior. What’s with complex technologies stuff? Unlike you, China is actually building them and exporting them in droves (China now leads the US in IT exports).

And yes, Sukhoi has warranties and they have a standard warranty period just like every manufacturer in the planet. Given that you don’t pay a high price on the MKI, I doubt that Sukhoi ever gave you such a sweeping warranties contract. Don’t give me the BS that the Russians love you so much, they’re willing to do a losing money business with you. You think that your warranties are forever? You honestly think that the Russian will maintain your stuff while they lose money?

You must live in na-na land. But then, your posts seem to indicate you are.

When the Su-27s first came to China, China didn’t have the infrastructure to fix them. Now they have a particularly large complex to deal with them.

Let us not forget that China is capable of building a Flanker nose to tail alone without importing a single Russian component other than the engine (but that last one will be resolved soon enough). So don’t tell me China being not able to supply parts. They can more than manufacture them—they can improve them. Just when you’re still importing your Su-30Ks, China was already on the way of assembling their first Flankers.

In fact, China has over 300 Flankers of all types, assigned to at least 12 regiments confirmed. Each regiment is worth about two squadrons in Western terms.

Discounting the typhoon issue, China looks to have lost three FLANKERs in four years. That’s really not that bad. The pilots were new to the aircraft, and it was far more advanced than anything they’d ever had in service until that point. Given those facts, and considering the mass numbers of FLANKERs that innundated the PLAAF ranks, I’d say that losing three jets is really a pretty decent accomplishment (not that losing any aircraft or aircrew is “decent”, but you get what I mean).

The 5 plane loss, two (or three) seriously damaged by typhoon beyond repair, I remembered this coming from a Jane’s article long ago. Epoch Times talking about the 5 plane loss isn’t an original, just harping on something that was already publshed.

As for whether the deal is worth it, well I say it paid back the Chinese major.

Sure the planes had problems but you have a majorly outdated airforce transitioning to things that are generationally ahead of them. So that’s bound to get into problems. It’s a painful trial and learn process, and pain is necessary if you want to grow up. Simply said, the purchases introduced the PLAAF to a whole new world.

Second, why is this deal worth it? Because the deal came bundled free with a strategic alliance with a major world power. The Sukhoi purchases inaugurated a new era in Sino-Russian relations that paved the way to other deals. A whole line of other deals that include submarines, ships, missiles, etc,. Yes it started a whole new era. And it not just weapons deals but it closed the cold war between Russia and China and opened a lucrative border trade, including access to Siberian oil. The geopolitical Cold War scenario is replaced overnight by a new transasian power alignment.

Thirdly, there is the sheer technology exposure that would benefit the Chinese defense industry.

Crobato,

I will tell you one thing. You don’t have to tutor people here on whats right and whats wrong. You have already played this trick upteenth time. We all know what is Epoch Times and what is China Daily. I have seen “you” rubishing Kanwa reports when they write against Chinese and then doing a U turn by posting Kanwa source when its positive. Its speaks more of your lack credibility than the news sources. Especially you and me have been loggerheads on the Chinese equipment issues.

While your Chinese official sources are fabricated lies to suit CCCP heads, Epoch Times is much more balanced if not very credible. It even had articles on Indian police brutality , which were right. The difference is you have so much ego that you can’t accept it. Your standard tricks are rubbishing the news sources and rubbishing the member poster who is trying to put across a point. You always claimed that i got axe to grind with Chinese forces, now i tell you, you are a habitual liar.

Now don’t consider it as an personal attack, I had to tell you this.

Balanced? You have to make me laugh.

Fa Lun Gong is a cult. Whether it is a cult located inside China or it is inside the US, it is basically full of crazies and has an agenda. Any cult that has apocalyptic overtones (EPOCH Times, will ya?) do you honestly consider that credible? When you order people to protest by burning themselves alive, I say that’s a pretty nutcase.

The fact that you brough up Epoch Times as a source, makes me doubt your credibility in the first place. The fact that you called it credible…HA HA HA HA HA….well you get the point.

The fact that you don’t even check your sources and their backgrounds, the fact that you demonstrate zero objectivity in the analysis of sourcese, makes me think that you, and your websites, are guaranteed rubbish.

I don’t know about China Daily. I don’t subscribe to it. The People’s Daily hardly talks about the military either. And I don’t subscribe to that either.

As for KANWA being rubbish at times, that’s a collective opinion and it is not mine alone. One American poster (and I know he is American because he always defends US equipment, politices, and show quite of a lot of technical knowledge) calls him “Clueless in Toronto”.

KANWA is very good when when it scoops something between China and Russia, because KANWA happens to have good Russian sources. But his Chinese sources are rubbish because they are no better than the same things you can read in the forums. I don’t need to read the same things I can read free in a forum.

yes but that werent the rule in europe when the so called ‘new age’ begun…ofcourse the catholics put resistance in individual cases, but they didnt manage to prevent the whole change of athmosphere…

The repressive actions of the Church may have cost European advancement by centuries. In other words, because of what they did, we are lucky to get where we are. And if we didn’t have things like the Inquisition, it is quite likely we as a society would have been more advanced, perhaps by a century or so.

Repressing a few individuals is more than enough, especially if these individuals include people like Galileo. Revolution begins with an individual.

Agree whit that, but the next biggest factor is the entertaiment…In west we are practically numbed whit overdoze of entartaiment that we have lost our ability to collective thinking, thus just believing all the little lies they fed us…and its doesent need to be lies, just impresses and stressing one fact over another, but mostly took almoust all news and happenings out of bigger picture. The basic understanding of world is effectively blurred and people are lead like pigs…

Entertainment is always a product of a prosperous society. Only the technology of entertainment changes. Two thousand years ago, we have gladiators, today, we have the WWE.

If you ever played the Simcity games, entertainment is actually a social factor you need to instill in a society to keep its citizens happy and productive. Of course,there is always something negative when you take entertainment too far.

The arts, which is also related to entertainment, is also essential in social and cultural development. The arts and technology are two fields that are heavily interconnected. Whenever you find plenty of art, you also find plenty of technology. And once again, there is also a collaborative factor between entertainment, art and technology.

Who is to say that many of our collective technological ideas for example, originated from science fiction, which is of course, a literary art meant to entertain.

Generally in a society that has become prosperous, it leads to entertainment, then art and technology. And it is a self reinforcing cycle.

In schools, we should be teached to guestion every auchrority

Very true

Intresting accpect, thougth thinking it bit future, is there similar factors that every empires fall? Can we determ as we can genrally determ why empire can rise, how it would fall or is it always too dependaple of the empires individual elements??

One classic element why empires fall is because of being overstretched. You are too big for your britches. In fact, China at the decay of the Qing Dynasty was an exceedingly big country since it covers territory right up to Siberia like Lake Baikal, Port Arthur, and the Amur region.

To control an empire you need a big bureaucracy and military. Both factors require a lot of money. And once you lose the money tap, the decay sets in, as you would have problems maintaining both your massive bureaucracy and military.

In fact, while an empire may have expanded and became an empire because of war, war is the last thing it needs to sustain. Obviously it will break your wallet. The last kind of war you can ill sustain is a guerilla type of war that goes on for years and years, where attrition, not just by personnel, but by the sheer cost of war.

One problem when you run out of money is that you don’t have capital for reinvestment. When you don’t have enough capital formation, you won’t have new business formation, and older businesses will not have the money to expand or reconstruct themselves.

We have already mentioned education and the world view (a dynamic world view vs. a static world view which can be determined by religion and philosophy).

China becoming a superpower economically in the mid 21st Century does not mean the US will fall. If you can still be a prosperous nation and live much better than you are now. If it is to fall, it would have to be by its own internal factors and how they deal or fail to deal with it. How the US will be in the 21st Century is pretty much based on its own actions, not because of someone else.

Under the watchful eye of Deng Xiaoping and Yang Shangkun, Jiang Zemin, despite being a layman in military affairs, had to demonstrate competency as the Chairman of the Central Military Commission. He announced plans to purchase high performance, state-of-the-art weaponry systems from Russia.
Although China spent huge sums of money to acquire them, all of her acquisitions proved to be obsolete weapons discharged by the former Soviet Union, or weapons that performed poorly and that Russia was clearing out. The warplanes received from Russia failed frequently. After the CCP started its purchase of Soviet-built warplanes (including Su-27s and Su-30s), in the years between 1997 and 2001 no less than five accidents were reported.

Epochtimes is a publication of the crackpot Falungong cult. Thjey are not only anti CCP government, but also has an apocalyptic view on things.

Of the five accidents, two are aircraft lost beyond repair by a typhoon. They were also appeared to have been replaced.

Well that explains why it wasn’t displayed publicly: people would’ve noted the TVC nozzles and started asking questions!

Projects that the Russians treat with a bit more silence is usually one with a Chinese market potential. It’s almost like a code that says “read between the lines”.