1: J-11 612, 616??
2: JJ-7
3: whats this???

Su-27 or J-11 radar with radar display on the bottom.

Since F-4, F-14, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, F-22 are all made by US companies, multinational JSF project must be impossible. God forbid, there is absolutely no first in anything…

Now tell me when a project that had US help that didn’t require direct component buys from the US. The Japanese F-2? The ROC F-CK-1?

Let’s make technology level from one to ten, ten being the best. I have level six technology for item A, and I need 5 million for the level seven R&D. You have level four technology, and in process of studying level five. Suppose I am desperate for money because my organizational restructuring wasn’t as good as expected. Your offer: You will buy 1000 level six item A directly from me for 7 million and give me a stake in your subgroup if and only if I offer assistance to speed up your level five R&D.

The other choice is that I offer no assistance. You’d only buy 400 items for contingency, and wait for your own level five R&D to finish, which you estimate to be a good alternative to my level six product.

Now, my other customer Mr X is anxious because of potential competition with you, but I could offer level five technology of item B to appease him.

Theoretically, helping you to speed up level five R&D is bad idea because you could have a substitute in the future and Mr X might be upset. But I know you could probably do it without me, although at a slower pace. So do I ignore my cash flow problem for now and hope you and other customers will somehow buy more than 400 items, or do I accept the possible future negative consequence and insure my survival first?

You seem to make it that the negative consequence will only be so little.

If AGAT decides to transfer said technology to China for a meager sum, what about the other Russian component makers? This will surely raise the ire of the Russian General Staff and directly threaten its relationship with Vympel and the other firms manufacturing missiles.

It is not after all that AGAT has such a bad cash flow to risk cutting their long term necks as they are a diversified company that manufactures other components. Let us not forget they also have sales to India and that China has also purchased R-77s. The fact that they could count on direct sales on the short term makes it even less likely (call it suicidal) that they would even self threaten their own short term sales with tech transfers to a potential competitor.

I don’t think Russia would provide the same level of technology to both India and China, but that doesn’t mean it’s everything for one and nothing for the other.

And then why would Russia give better technology access to China for any reason? That’s precisely what giving the seeker head would do? Why would Russia provide China with seeker heads that the Chinese could potential sell to Pakistan which can be used against Indian pilots?

Engine is one of the several key technology areas where China has no significant leverage against Russia. Of course Russians make sure they get the most money out of this and aren’t as likely to provide help.

Like I said, technical assistance could be part of offset deal. That’s only one of the possible reasons.

Nonsense. What kind of offset would the Russians get? How will the Russians make the most money out of this? You contradict yourself. Selling seeker heads would make a lot less money than selling whole missiles.

Tell what kind of offset the Russians would get from:

– Losing the entire Chinese missile market entirely. You keep forgeting that passing missile techs does not just benefit one particular AAM, but certain general technologies can be applied on other types of missiles of all applications (including potentially strategic ones).

– Risk their relationship with the Indians when the Chinese sell such missiles to Pakistan.

– Further augments Chinese military superiority over the Russians, something that worries the Russian General Staff.

I’ll take the -E. The added slats in the wings made it more maneuverable than previous variants.

Can’t find a good place for this. Here is my original comment, which I could not post from the now locked WS-10 thread:

After technological base is established, it is very possible to expand. China has chosen missiles as one of the area of concentration. Although priority of AAM wasn’t as high as Ballistic missiles, it will change as advanced aircraft platforms mature. There is no doubt China will able to make its own BVR missile eventually, simply because of the resources invested and the technology spillovers.

Once again we see the binary mentality here. There is no reason to separate missile project into only two stages of knowing nothing and success assured. Engineering projects are much more than feasibility studies and certifications for mass production, there are multiple increments of requirement specification, architectural analysis, prototypes, model / simulation, design review, etc. There could be components that China would be able to make only at lower quality, higher cost, or longer schedule – it could easily benefit from Russian assistance for different reasons.

Missile / radar is also another complicated issue. It is possible Russian agreed to the interface for a high price, and China refused. Or China could use PL-12 with Russian radar but simply choose not to do so because Russian missiles are superior. Or if China is determined to replace the radar/missiles on some platform anyway, release source code easily would only mean less missile sale for MKK / MK2. There are a lot of possibilities, the Russian radar / PL-12 situation doesn’t prove PL-12 absolutely had no Russian assistance.

PL-12 in particular I’m pretty sure there is no Russian assistance. Why? Because it demonstrates none of the benefits such a cooperation would produce.

One of the real attraction points of Russian assistance would be to enable the missile to integrate successfully with China’s large inventory of Russian sourced fighters.

However, this hasn’t happened. The PL-12 fully requires a Chinese radar and FCS to work. This truly puts the major point of Russian assistance clearly down the gutter.

For me, the test of a theory lies in its ability to be clear of contradictions. The Russian assistance theory has a problem with not just one contradiction, but with quite a few.

— It contradicts with the Russian effort to directly sell missiles to China, which is vitally important for their missile industries. Simply said, Rossoboronexport would not allow it.

— It contradicts with China’s efforts to sell AAMs to Pakistan, as the Russians will not allow Russian componentry on missiles that will potentially kill soldiers from one of their staunch allies.

— It contradicts with the observation that the Russians remain highly suspicious about the Chinese and are not going to pass them technology that would seriously enhance Chinese capability that would make the Chinese superior in any theoritical conflict.

— It contradicts with the lack of observed integration with Russian sourced planes in the PLAAF.

— The Chinese would never, never provide indigenous FCS information to the Russians even if said Russians are working for the Chinese.

It is possible that the Russians and the Chinese may have once talked about a possible joint AAM project venture, a missile that can be used on both Chinese and Russian planes. The benefits of such a project is obvious. But if you read the above, you can also see why such a partnership would not die in the bud.

Quite unlikely. The YJ-12 appears more like it was based on the Kh-31/Sunburn concepts. The shape and pattern of the intakes has no relevance but the general operating principle is.

The PC looks like a training simulation. Yes this is clearly man in the loop TV style guidance.

This one is for CFF which needed to be responded.

It’s not contradictory. If China is determined to develop its own AAM, Russia faces two choices: Russia could provide no help at all and do not accelerate Chinese development. Alternatively, providing technology assistance allows Russia to gain access to the project, and Russia controls the level of technology released. Offering assistance doesn’t equal unlimited access.

It is because it hurts the Russian’s own chance of selling the R-77 profitably to the Chinese. Without the R-77, they would also lose their chances to sell all sorts of radars and fire control systems to add. Just check the current trends lately. China does not appear to be that satisfied with the R-77 solution and is moving to the PL-12 solution instead. It has clearly affected all the potential radar and firecontrol systems upgrade sales—the proposed SKM upgrades to the J-11 fleet, future MK2 and MK3 sales, no follow on R-77 purchases, etc,.

The fact that the Russians are not allowing the RD-93 to be exported to Pakistan is a clear indication that neither will they allow missile components to be second exported to Pakistan as well in the SD-10 guise. The SD-10 has to be completely domestic for that reason.

For reverse engineering, it’s very difficult to do without an actual sample, but I am not suggesting PL-12 relying on reverse engineering of R-77. Direct technical assistance doesn’t require sample of another missile.

But for China it so often does require a working sample.

AIM-7s picked up from Vietnam for the PL-4.
Actual imported Aspides for the PL-10/11.
Actual imported Python 3s for the PL-8. At least 300 may have been imported into China before China manufactured their own.
MiG-21F for the J-7
Actual Spey engines for the WS-9

PLA had 50 engines for the first regiment of JH-7. Number of engines exceeds and does not equal number of aircraft produced.

Sorry but you failed to consider something. The first regiment of JH-7s is about 18 to 20 planes. But you keep forgeting there is also four prototypes. Each plane uses two engines. Subtract at least two engines for use in reverse engineering.

Six more prototypes were built prior to the second block production and the JH-7A but they could already be using WS-9s here.

Goldendragon

It might the Blue Sky terrain radar pod we see here advertised (on the J8II.)

Blue Sky seems too big for the pod in the JH-7A. Besides the end seems to be sharpened.

Dongdong2

Nobady post this? One of China’s cruise missiles.Maybe YJ-62? Obviously it isn’t an anti-ship missile such as C-601. It’s slim and the tail wings are totally different.

Thanks for posting it. It can either be a long range antiship missile or an LACM.