Crobato, look at the Indians. They too are planning to fly the Kaveri in a Su30. Its a logical thing to use the Su for an engine test. One flames out, it can make it back on its widely spaced remaining Al31.
So the put engine in Su- despite the effort as you point out, need not mean that they’re planning to change the engines for the Su fleet.

Why would you test the Kaveri on an Su-30? The MiG-29 is a much more appropriate platform for testing the Kaveri.

The Kaveri is a different class of engine from the WS-10A. It’s an 8,000 to 9,000kg thrust class type of engine, thrust much smaller, dimensions much smaller, weight much lighter than an AL-31F. The Kaveri’s thrust and weight class belongs much close to the RD-33/GE F404 range of engines. The WS-10A belongs to the AL-31F/GE F110/PW F100 range of engines with thrust from 12,000 to 13,200kg.

And you may have forgotten the fact that the latest WS-10A/J-11 pictures had TWO of the new engines, not one.

Let me repeat this to you, the Kaveri is not a direct fit to the AL-31F. The WS-10A is. Asking to put a Kaveri on an Su-30 makes as much flight sense as putting an RD-33 in one side of the Su-30 and an AL-31F on the other.

Crobato- we still dont know whether the JXXX’s are 100% indigenous. yes, we know that x,y.z talked about industry sources speculating the same. But we dont know for sure. Ok even with indigenous 100% JXXX’s my point was contextual- namely the Su’S will remain the lance. Whether they be Chinese or Russian. This wrt the advnatges vis a vis the JH, J10 etc.

We know pretty sure the JH-7 and JH-7A are indigenous and which parts are not. The only foreign parts of the JH-7 are the Spey engines. The admitted numbers of Spey engines (around 90) cannot support more than 30 to 40 aircraft, and you still need to leave some for spares.

There are two regiments of JH-7, with 20 aircraft each, plus another 10 prototypes. At some point, that already exceeded the supply of Speys. At some point, particularly with the JH-7A, which already recently entered service, the engines have shifted to the indigenous WS-9. How much the WS-9 is related to the Spey we don’t know. Suffice to say let’s assume it’s close in size and dimensions. JDW reported that the engine thrust is raised from 10,000kg of the original Spey to 12,000kg.

The radar is indigenous. It is the JL-10A made by Leihua Institute. From photographs, video clips in TV, models and posters shown in airshows, it is a slotted planar array with a diameter between 700mm to 900mm (it fits between the MiG-29 and the Su-27 size). I don’t know much specs from it, but a lock on range of 80km is assumed. This radar appeared to have been a candidate for the J-10 as well (perhaps the reason why it’s called JL-10A; the JL-7A radars was for the J-7 fighter).

Compared to the Type 147X Falcon radars from NRIET Institute, Leihua’s radar is probably inferior in air to air performance, but it’s got good ground attack capability. It supports the use of C-801/802/803 (YJ-8X series) AshMs, so it’s sure to have sea search and target tracking modes, implying it would also have the ground based equivalents. It should have terrain mapping, doppler sharpening, and perhaps terrain avoidance and perhaps SAR. It can support the Kh-31P (licensed as the YJ-91) through the RWR, and the Blue Sky pod (similar to a Litening) for LGBs. A US military intelligence reports credits a 255km launching of a C-803 from a JH-7. It’s possible the system can detect large sea targets at 250 to 300km.

I already mentioned that Type 147X series radars are used in PLAAF fighters; 1471 for the J-8II, 1473 for the J-10, another one for the J-7G (I don’t have the exact PLA type number for this one yet. The FC-1 05 prototype will also use a variation of this radar. The J-11 will either use 147X type radar but I also heard that Leihua Institute is also competiting for the contract with a variant of the radar based on the JL-10A above called the JL-15 (possible code name “Divine Eagle”). Phazotron specially mentioned Leihua as one of the companies involved in making a radar for the Su-27 in an airshow not long ago.

It is possible that China may be contemplating of using both NRIET and Leihua radars; a variant of the JL-10A on an Su-27 may mean a naval version that can equip C-80X series AshMs. Such a plane can mount a serious challenge to any naval asset since it would be possible to fit at least five such missiles on an Flanker platform without using external fuel tanks.

If the Russians were supplying Zhuk radars for the J-10s and the JH-7s they would have made it known. After all its no secret when the J-10 engines were imported from Russia and the JH-7 Spey engines from Great Britain. Fact remains Russians tried to market their radars but there was no sale. China probably did a serious evaluation of the Zhuk-M/Zhemchug radars before settling on the indigenous radar choices for the J-10 and JH-7A. Political reasons can play a factor, as well as the need to be compatible with indigenous missiles.

The Bars outperforms the Pero. Be as it may, do we know for sure how many WS10’s are in service? What their performance specs are? How the MTBF is?
As to what China is doing- so do so many other nations with aerospace ambitions? I mean- why rely on someone else when you can rely on yourself?

WS-10A is scheduled to come into service as early as 2005. Thrust is 13,200kg and it has a thrust to weight ratio of 7.5. This is based on scanned magazine reports in Chinese language, so China didn’t make this a secret. I don’t know about the MBTO. Articles also state it would be for the J-11 initially, before coming to the J-10. This indicates that J-10 would be running on the AL-31FN for time before shifting to its own version of the WS-10A.

Song vs. Kilo subs
Sovremanny vs 052B DDGs
Su-30MK2 vs JH-7A
Su-27 vs. J-10
S-300 vs. HQ-9

In each case, does the foreign analog (russian language here) outperform the Chinese one or not? Tho’ the ships are close comparators.

To be honest, it’s a tough call. Let’s take the Song subs.

039 (No. 320) is a mixed success. The sub was noisy because of a bad conning tower design. They redesigned the sail as the 039A, and results were a lot better. Even as they made one Song sub every six months (321-325 have so far been built and commissioned). China went ahead and ordered 8 new Kilos.

The Songs are capable of launching C-802/C-803 underwater. The two 877KEM and 636 Kilos China has do not have that capability, but they can be upgraded. The 8 new Type 636 Kilos have the capability to launch Novator Klub-S underwater (3M-54E). These missiles have a 220km range with a supersonic terminal attack velocity. (The ones the Indians have are the 3M54E1, which has the longer 300km range but loses the supersonic terminal phase).

The Songs appear to have nice neat modernized control systems and that appears true of all PLAN ships. I think the new Kilos may be better but there is no loser there here, as the Songs are quite respectable. On the DDGs, can’t say who is better, the Sovremanny or the 052B but I think the 170/171 052C DDG “Red Aegis” tops them all when it comes air defense, and it may introduce a new supersonic AshM along with the VLS SAM system. The 052B may be more modern, but the Type 956EM destroyers (with the new 200km Sunburn 3M80MBE) may got greater punch.

In terms of antiship capability, I can’t say the Su-30MK2 is better than the JH-7A. The Kh-31A used on the Su-30MK2 only has 70km, while the JH-7A can mount an C-803 which has a range of 160-255km. Guess who would you choose if you’re going to attack a guided missile destroyer with Standards?

J-10 vs. J-11 may boil down to pilot skill. But the standard Su-27SK is outdated compared to what is known and suspected about the J-10 and its systems. Thus its important to modernize the Su-27. If avionics are equal, the Su-27 has more range and payload, but the J-10 would be more economical to operate, good for putting more flight hours into pilots, and allow larger volumes of the plane to be used.

Not much is known about the HQ-9, but it can be the reason why China did not order that many S-300s. HQ-9 appears to be a cross between the S-300 system and the Patriot system, with either an active radar guidance or a passive (ARM SAM) seeker aimed against AWACS and ECM aircraft. The latter is marketed as the FT-2000. HH-9 is the naval version, and this appears to be the system used on the Red Aegis. China ordered S-300PMU1, but recently S-300PMU2 systems, mainly the radar units at first.

I can’t say who and who is better. In the case of the Su-30MK2, I believe buying the plane was a prerequisite before buying the Su-30MK3. The Su-30MK2 is no certainly better on the AshM role than the JH-7A. Both planes boast digital cockpits but the Su-30MK2 is still using a twist cassegrain antenna while the JH-7A uses a slotted planar. But the Su-30MK3 changes to the Zhuk MSE, which uses a slotted planar, and will use the Kh-59MK missile (285km range vs. the 255km recorded range of the C-803). I don’t think the Su-30MK2/N001VEP/Kh-31A combination is superior to the JH-7A/JL-10A/C-803 combination in the antiship role; in fact I think it’s inferior. But the Su-30MK2 is a step needed to the Su-30MK3, which in combination with Zhuk MSE/Kh-59MK, would be superior to the JH-7A combination.

If the Su’s become the bread and butter, where does that leave the JH. You are buttressing my point.

Read the above on what I said about the JH-7A, Su-30MK2 and Su-30MK3.

I have to add that JH-7A for a long time was in the limbo/Twilight Zone—it’s survivability in the eyes of the PLA was bleak. The PLAAF has already rejected the design even before there were Su-27s. There were problems procuring additional Spey engines (eventually released by Mr. Tony Blair), and the WS-9 engine was delayed. The Type 232H radar had teething problems and a lot depended on the success of the JL-10A project. Say around the year 2000-2001, it wasn’t sure the JH-7 program would be continued. Things started to happen in March 2002, when finally the JH-7A development program made the finish line. Currently Xian AC may be trying to get a PLAAF contract for it in addition to the PLANAF contracts. That’s why the JH-7A is fitted with Kh-31Ps, Blue Sky pods and LGBs for ground attack. It’s still a far shot, but this drama does indicate that China’s aviation industry appears more capitalistic and self competitive than previously thought.

Personally I think China got way too many kinds of planes, and if I were the head, you’re only going to see just MKKs and J-10s. I will eliminate J-8IIs, J-7s (and their evolved variants), FC-1s, and J-11s.

[i]
It does matter. What it implies is that the engine was put in the a/c to test the engine not to replace the current engines with something better. Why trifle with something that works and has been acuired at considerable expense? Also we are left with Q2- will the Russians agree to have their airframe mucked around with?

Clearly I doubt that.

Common sense.

Engines are not plug and play, and neither are airframes. The engine on the J-11 would have its gearbox on the top; the J-10 would need the gearbox on the low. The J-10’s also need to be smaller and more compact. You would need two seperate versions of the engines just for the two aircraft.

You don’t put this engine on an Su-27 airframe without meaning to do it in the long run. The Chinese reports I’ve seen do plan to have the engine initiated as early as 2005 and for the J-11 first, before moving on to the J-10.

Why screw around with a proven airframe? This is an engine change, and the new engine is built to be as unobstrusive as possible. This is not the case of an airframe being built around an engine, more like the other way around.

The Chinese are obsessed with self sufficiency. My guess is that they made it a priority that 100% of the Su-27 can and should be made in China as a strategic goal.

There are strategic advantages, all less foreign dependency. At 13,200kg, the WS-10A is indeed more powerful than the AL-31F, about the equal of the AL-31FM1, although the latter appears to be offered to China as well. China would have the edge in the maintenance and the logistics of the engine. They can have strict control of the quality, and if the quality fails, got no one to blame for it. AL-31Fs do not have a spotless record—it tends to have annoying quality issues that sours both India’s and China’s imipression on it. If the Chinese believe they can put their own engine on it, its possible they can keep their running costs and increase flight time assuming indeed the new engine is indeed for the better.

Today the IAF is showing the russian offer of MiG29’S a polite finger and plumping for Mirages. Now could China do the same with the Su’s- which are the lance of its AF…? Once the JXXX’s start rolling in, perhaps, but till then the plaaf will have to play with some restrictions.

The J-XXX’s are starting to roll in. And that’s the other point for China. China is showing its finger at Sukhoi in particular, using the J-10 and the 100% indigenous J-11. But it’s not fair to say that actually. Sukhoi did try to get China to buy Su-35s and TVC Su-30MKs (using a Phazotron radar instead of Bars). Even had serious talks on the Su-33 as well. But they all probably come with a high price tag, and China is not willing to pay luxo-car prices. The indigenization of the J-11 has a lot to do with reducing the cost factors. Either the Russians lower the bill, or China uses their own. Regardless China wins. Indiginization also forces the Russians to up the technology stakes of what they offer to China; the stuff they sell have to be better.

Oh yes, the WS-10A is also being tested with TVC versions and from what I heard the Chinese radars being developed for the J-11 may involve phase array. But it is not as if the Russians did not offer TVC for the MKK—both TVC and phase array (in the form of the Phazotron Sokol and Tikhomirov Pero, not the Bars) are in the list of items approved for China. The odd thing is, China might actually buy and deploy both Russian and indigenous systems. China’s acquisitions are full of redundancy. It staggers the mind for any practical reason why they do it, but they do it still.

Song vs. Kilo subs
Sovremanny vs 052B DDGs
Su-30MK2 vs JH-7A
Su-27 vs. J-10
S-300 vs. HQ-9

So yes, the indignization of the J-11 has to do with the Su-27 now being bread and butter—the MKKs continue to be built in Russia and sold to China. Will Sukhoi profit? Yes. Sukhoi may still get a licensing fee from every plane built. The more planes built the better. It’s a pure paper profit too. In a contract build, Sukhoi has to pay factories like KnAAPO and parts subcontractors, and that whittles down on the profits significantly. So long China does not export the Su-27s they make.

Sukhoi is not worried about giving the Su-27 away to China. It is gambling on the assumption that by the time China masters the Su-27, it is obsolete and Sukhoi will get enough funds for PAK-FA development. Indiginization does not give your best techs away, and furthermore allows Sukhoi to directly compete against Chinese indigenous fighters on both a cost and political basis. The planes will not only be cheaper, but they can satisfy any hardliner in the Chinese government playing the national self sufficiency priority speech. This puts Sukhoi in the good side of the Chinese government and even encourage more Su-30 sales in the future which will carry a higher price tag with the higher technology content.

If you look at the situation deeper, Sukhoi may be playing smart here, rolling with the waves, bending with the wind to get an even better strategic position, playing like an ancient Chinese strategy piece.

“The SD-10’s radar and data link is indigenous. That’s from the horses’ mouth. The tests were also done from a J8II which has a Chinese radar not a Russian one.”

Yes indeed, if the missile is worked right off from the Type 1471/KLJ-1 radar of the J-8II, it should be indigenous. If it was Russian, they would be using an MKK to test it.

[QUOTE=Karna]

I would have to seriously and sincerely disagree that the Chinese would not go ahead. I know it defies some logic but I believe they seriously would.

And they [b]will[/b].

Understood from where? Which report exactly and with what certainty?

Check with both Richard Fisher’s articles from the USCC and Hui Tong’s website.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm

“But it also appears that the PLAAF may more ambitious plans for the J-11. In mid-2002 Russian sources indicated Shenyang was also pursuing another multi-role version of the J-11 with high PRC content.[30] This was confirmed at the 2003 Moscow airshow. This second version apparently will feature a new Chinese multi-mode radar, avionics and possibly the WS-10A turbofan—which was tested on a J-11 in 2002. The new J-11 version is also expected to be armed with PLA-made weapons, to include the SD-10 active-guided AAM, and very likely, a new SRAAM in development, plus a range of attack munitions. To the disappointment of some Sukhoi officials, this Shenyang version will not draw on Sukhoi intentions to produce a similar upgrade with Russian components, but much sooner.”

What Richard Fisher has been saying is only a mere affirmation of many independent rumors and reports filtering out from China. Fisher obtained his by interviewing the Russians, although I’ve already heard something from this from a disclosure from Phazotron to Jane’s.

Yet the Chinese made it public they actually flew a J-11 with one domestic engine in one side, and the AL-31F in the other. Recently we got solid photos of a J-11 with both engines using the purported WS-10A.

That was for the J10 program was it not? Thats hardly comparable to shifting over to WS10’s for the J11 fleet overall.

Wrong again.

The WS-10A was first tested live on the J-11, not on the J-10. Given the differences of the way the engine fits on the two planes—the J-11 would require the gearbox on the upper, not lower—its obvious

Once again, radars are small potatoes compared to engines. If they can do it with engines, they would do it with the radar.

Apples to oranges. The example you have quoted is non contextual.

Wrong again.

It has something to do with the context of applying indigenous content on the licensed planes.

The engines being a greater percentage component over radar or avionics—if such was allowed, it would mean virtually the whole plane

The rather surprising cold “consideration” the Chinese gave on the SKM upgrade proposal is another pointer that the Chinese are running their own project.

Not necessarily. They may be holding out for a better price or better specs or both.

Perhaps, but I doubt that.

But again, a seperate Jane’s report from Robert Hewson indicated that China may already have received 100 of such kits from 2001, perhaps more now (this is 2004, the Hewson report was from 2003).

The N001VEP upgrade, if performed on the J-11s, would not be a costly and time consuming upgrade. It can be performed within weeks (three weeks was the time it took to convert the Su-27UB to the UBM standard with a similar multirole N001 based radar.) It is not inclusive or exclusive if the Chinese will apply their own upgrades later. Rather, it could be a two stage process.

J-11 — Based on generic Su-27SK package

J-11A — Modified to a subset of the SKM standard. This converts the plane into a single seater MKK but without IFR probe and some other features.

J-11B — Using Chinese upgrades.

http://www.stormpages.com/jetfight/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm

“It was also reported that SAC has been upgrading Su-27SKs and J-11s to the Su-27SMK standard with kits supplied by Russia (dubbed J-11A?), making it a multirole figther to better complement the more advanced Su-30MKK. The upgrade includes two color MFDs, plus an improved radar (N001VE derivative?), enhanced navigation and computer fits (with MIL-STD 1553B databus). A futher upgrade program (J-11B?) might include a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474/KLJ4?) compatible with SD-10 AAM and replacing AL-31F with the indigenous WS-10A. One WS-10A (13,200kg class) turbofan was successfully tested on a J-11 testbed (currently belonging to CFTE) in June 2002.”

So indeed, the two projects may not be inclusive. One is a stepping stone towards the other. I’ll wager that China would be extending the J-11 licensing rights to include the new upgraded J-11s.

http://www.uscc.gov/researchreports/2004/04fisher_report/7airforcesystems.htm

“If this rate is sustained the 1996 contract could be fulfilled by 2005-2006. Again, Russian sources say that following the completion of the 1996 contract, there will be a second co-production contract.[28] At this point the number of new J-11s for the second contract is not known, but the longevity of SAC’s J-11 program appears assured.”

Exactly. So the point is that Russia would still rather have its products on the Flankers and perhaps the PlAAF itself is waiting for the local upgrades to mature before it contemplates an expensive and time consuming transition.

Of course the Russians would rather have their own products on the Flankers but it is up for them to win the Chinese favoritism. The book is still not fully closed.

To win the favor, they would have to lower prices, offer more incentives, and integrate Chinese missiles to the radar.

Again- what do we have apart from a handful of pics and few and far between reports?

The handful of pics are pretty solid if you ask me.

Breakthroughs? Sure, why not. But that still doesnt imply a tried and tested product from a manufacturer with a proven name (tried and tested wrt the lineage) and again we simply do not know whether the Russians will agree. In fact, given what I know of them I’d wager they’ll put a spanner in the works if China attempts to remod the Flankers on its own.

The fact is the Russians already know about this for quite sometime. If they had wanted to stop, they would have done so before. Or simply they may not have the power to stop it.

So what. Many Russian enterprises are TOTALLY dependent on Indian largesse. But they still do everything to have things their own way.
Again we are speculating on “he said she said”. Do we have conclusive evidence either way?

No Russian enterprise are dependent on the over US$ billion PER YEAR like Sukhoi does with China.

Every year, Sukhoi is always seriously negotiating with the Chinese for the next MKK and Su-27 parts buy. At some point they would have agreed something in the overall picture.

Sukhoi would probably have allowed the use of Chinese radars and engines into the J-11s as part of a compromise package that would ensure that China would continue buying at least 20-30 Su-30MKKs per year for the next few years until a certain quantity has been reached. China probably “exchanged” the rights to license MKK for the J-11 indigenisization rights. The reason why I think about this is that reports or rumors of China licensing the MKK quickly died as soon as the reports/rumors of the J-11 being indigenized further started coming in.

Sukhoi’s willingness to allow these rights is probably also due to the pressure from the competing J-10 project from Chengdu.

Sukhoi has a choice—make the J-11s more appealing to the Chinese leadership by allowing Chinese radars and engines or such, or lose the market to the J-10. It’s also a politically motivated choice.

The seeker is definitely Chinese—Huoyang Institute under the CPMIEC umbrella. I don’t think the Russians would ever release the seeker alone to the Chinese—that would be like cutting their own throat. It is simply illogical. The datalink could be AGAT’s, which is Belarussian, the only reason for using an AGAT datalink would be to help integrate with the Russian systems.

Source?

http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=static&page=zhuhai2002

“More SD-10 and Short-Range AAM Details

Sources noted that the PLAAF has conducted about 20 test flights for the new Louyang SD-10 (Project 129) active-guided air-to-air missile (AAM). The tests included full missile self-guided to target missions. Louyang vociferously denied reports that the SD-10’s radar and data link are from the Russian AGAT bureau, insisting they were indigenous. Louyang also said that they are considering SAM and naval SAM variants of the SD-10. A brochure of the SD-10 exists but they were not distributing them. A Louyang official also noted that their new advanced short-range AAM would be smaller than existing PL-9 and PL-5 models, and would be helmet-sighted.”

Phazotron did indeed reveal that China and Russia are co developing a compatibility project across their radars and missiles to enable each other’s radars to work with each other missiles. The benefits are obvious. For example, a J-10 with domestic radar can shoot the R-77, or an Su-30MKK with Russian radar is able to launch a C-803 AshM.

Sure. Thats exactly what I said. Phaza will make sure its fingers are in the pie.

It’s not a guaranteed buy. The entire contest who will be the radar on the future J-11s will be based on merit. Phazotron is a far shot.

With Kanwa reporting that the FC-1 05 will be equipped with a Type 147X radar, and factory posters showing that the J-7G is equipped with KLJ-6E radar, this is indication that the PLAAF is trying to standardize on radars based on the NRIET institute. (Type 147X is PLA designation for the NRIET factory designation of KLJ-X). J-8IIs and J-10s are already using radars based on this institute (KLJ-1/Type 1471 for the J-8II, and KLJ-3/Type 1473 for the J-10). The NRIET radars are designed to launch the SD-10, and indeed the J-8II equipped with these units was the first to fire the SD-10.

Thus it makes sense for the J-11Bs to be equipped with NRIET radars.

“A futher upgrade program (J-11B?) might include a Chinese multifunction PD radar (Type 1474/KLJ4?) compatible with SD-10 AAM and replacing AL-31F with the indigenous WS-10A.”

Well you speculated- i counter speculated. Its called Mutually assured speculation.
Now you really are making no sense at all, mon ami.
The Russians are hardly releasing superior tech if they sell downgraded tech, wot? The Adder purchase may have included a “help us with SD10” clause as well. Pay enough and the Russians will help. Your boys get a missile, the Russians get money. Yaawn.
IMHO, the SD10 seeker and datalink are the same as that of the R77’s per the reports, some tweaking apart. So this downgraded/ all new indigenous stuff is a bit of a charade.

I doubt the SD-10 is using a Russian seeker or datalink. The missile dimensions are different for the same seeker. The seeker on the SD-10 would have to use a larger antenna than the one on the R-77. That alone could give you a longer terminal seeker range.

Also, the seekers were never Russian, they are Belarussian. (Maybe you like to know the R-73 seeker is not Russian either, it’s Ukrainian).

The SD-10 seeker appears to have better capability over the 9B-1348 seeker used on the R-77. If it was Federation in origin, it’s more likely to be AGAT’s 9B-1103M seeker than the 1348 seeker.

Its probable that AGAT may have played an advisory role in the design of the seeker and the datalink, but again, I believe it does not use any AGAT or Russian components directly.

And why should one assume that the PLAAF would have upgraded the birds? ALl these days they would have been enough, even now they are relevant systems.
Obscolescence is a relative term.
With AWACS and effective GCI support, the avionics on the birds dont play as critical a factor as they could be in a force which lacks the same.
Given the depth of the modernisation necessary for the PLAAF, it makes ample sense that they would be concentrating on the core issues rather than goldplating their Su’s with continuous upgrades.

They can afford to do both the core issues and the Su upgrades.

And its not just a matter of GCI and AWACS. Those things for example do not improve your weapons compatibility. Your Su armed with only AA-10s for BVR is going to suck against opponents who carry some of the best BVR missiles inventories in the entire world. Taiwan alone carries MICA, Skyswords, AIM-7Ms (which I personally think is still better than the Alamo), and no sh*t—block C AMRAAMs. They’re the first non US customer to have the AIM-120C.

Its crucial for the PLAAF to attempt to even out the BVR edge by having R-77 capable aircraft, which requires an upgrade on the Su-27. This is only going t o be a short term solution—the longer term one would be to get the Chinese Su’s to use indigenous BVR missiles like the SD-10. Let’s face it R-77 production is not going to satisfy the needs of everyone, considering you can’t make if fast enough to fit a growing market from India, China, Malaysia, etc,. And the missile will be expensive. Logistically, and cost wise, it would be better for China to develop a competitive BVR missile of its own. China can produce as many as it wants for the lowest costs.

If Russia agrees to integrate SD-10 on Russian radars meant for the Su-27 and Su-30MKK, it would save the PLAAF some expense. But the Russians would have to bite on losing potential R-77 sales in the process. But if they did not agree to this, China would still go ahead and put their own SD-10 capable radars on all their planes meant for air superiority (with the exception of the MKK which is meant for strike). So it may be better to save the radar sales at the expense of the missile sales. Personally I think the firm of Phazotron is willing to integrate Chinese missiles so it can have some sales in the mainland.

The upgrade appears to be in a negotiation stage with the Russians even as China pursues its own developments on SD-10 integration. The following months may reveal more information as the story develops.

Can you say the above with 100% confidence? I think not.
They can supply jigs but unless they supply design data China will have to attempt to reverse engineer, which will be a hard task.
There are many ways to protect IPRs in avionics and structural units and the Russians are past masters at the game- ask India. Apart from these, the russians can also use contractual agreements to make sure China does not rev engineer certain components. Its all part of the technology game.

That’s true but it does not matter. China is master of the game in reverse or supplemental engineering. Better yet, this is at their home turf.

You don’t need to reverse engineer everything. You only replace components with the equivalent functionality. AL-31F with WS-10A engine; N001 radar with Type 147X/KLJ-X radar “Falcon” from NRIET or the Divine Eagle from LETRI.

The issue is not whether China *CAN* do it or not, or whether it is *LEGAL* for them to do or not.

The real issue is that China *IS ALREADY* doing it. They *ARE* replacing the engine with their own. They *ARE* embarked on a program to replace the radar with their own. Structural units of the aircraft has either already been replaced with indigenous components; the OEPS has been either been copied, licensed or replaced by a domestic version; the HMS system has also been replaced by a domestic version (we have seen those in shows).

The Russians know this for quite some time already. I think that contractual agreements between Russia and China do eventually allow for the inevitable and complete destined replacement of all components in the Su-27 from radar to engine. Otherwise why would China do this so blatently?