Originally posted by SOC
How do you figure? The J-7, J-8II, and JH-7 all have single ventral fins…

The J-7 isn’t their design; the J-8II and the JH-7 had inspirations from the the MiG-23—the JH-7 was originally concieved as a swnig wing.

The JJ-7 trainer does have double ventrals and the new JH-7A as well. The original J-8I has dual ventrals.

Originally posted by shamayel
Yeah that wing fence had me thinking for a while too. But I think its only for the prototypes flying without the FBW system. Once the FBW is installed it won’t be necessary (I hope).
On a side note wing fences are sort of a chinese and russian tradition or something. I mean i haven’t seen any western planes with them….or do they put vortex generators instead?:confused:

No. The presence of wing fences do not mean it’s not FBW. Many aircraft use other gimmicks that double as wing fences. For example, pylons under the wings, or wing tip pylons and missiles such as the F-16 FBW does not eliminate tip stall and air drift towards the wing tips as FBW does not alter the aerodynamic characteristics of the wing. Western aircraft that do have fences include the Hawk, the Harrier, the F-14 and every modern airliner. Pylons holding engines serve as wing fences just as pylons holding stores.

Chinese aircraft seems to have a tradition of using wing fences, as well as dual ventral fins in the rear.

There are other ways to increase vortex generation such as leading edge slats, sawteeth, LERXes, double deltas, but wing fences are cheap, easy to install and easy to remove. If you are experimenting and refining, they’re the best solution. My guess is that the wing fences are added to help prevent stalls as an additional safety measure while the FBW and the slats are being refined.

Originally posted by kya bidu
corbato calling me names does you no good, and only highlights your frustrations.

What you are asking me to do is

1. Disbelieve Salyut and the Chinese govt when they say the engines are meant for the MKK

2. Believe you when you say the engines are meant for the J10, because you think it may have a gearbox at the bottom.

duh!!! Not likely I will believ your conjecture. Name calling stereotyping and the flaming starts with the Chinese posters who have nothing but their fantasy.

Go ahead say what you will, dream and conjecture what you have to – till the engine makers actually say they are supplying engines for the J10 there is every likely hood the supplier is right and your fantasy is wrong.

You have just confirmed your status as an incompetent researcher and Internet NOOB.

You really have no experience with the analysis of media related to defense. They are not exactly above politics.

EAT THIS IDIOT.

http://www.clw.org/cat/newswire/nw061501.html>

“China to buy Russian engines for F-10 fighters June 15, 2001 PARIS, Jun 14, 2001 (Itar-Tass via COMTEX) – – The command of the Chinese army decided to equip its F-10 fighter planes with the Russian AL-31FN engines, a member of the Chinese delegation at the international airshow in Le Bourget told Tass on Thursday. He said the Chinese army is to receive over 300 such planes in the coming ten years. The serial production of the fighters is to begin in 2003. However Russia will supply several dozen of the engines in the coming two years.
The AL31FN engine will highlight the display of the Salyut enterprise in Le Bourget. The company is the main producer of AL31F engines for Su-27 and Su-30MKK fighters exported to China.
The AL31FN engine will make F-10 a supermanoeuvrable plane thanks to a new thurst control. It will have no analogues in South-East Asia, according to the Chinese representative.”

http://rcaam.milparade.com/paid/214/5-01.shtml

“One such country, for instance, is China which decided to equip its Jianjiji-10 (F-10 by NATO classification) single engine fighter with the AL-31FN engine (low-mounted, augmented type). According to experts, starting from 2003 there may be built for the Chinese Air Force more than 300 such fighter planes. The steady demand for Su-type combat aircraft as well as for combat craft engines holds a promising future for Russia’s leading aircraft engine manufacturers. One of them is Salyut, a Moscow-based Federal Research and Production Center. This is where AL-31F engines are serially produced for fighter aircraft. It is the opinion of Salyut’s general director, Yuri Eliseev, that this engine which has remained operational for over 15 years, still meets the order of the day in terms of technical characteristics. It today’s total output of the company, the Al-31F accounts for more than 80%. But, for the AL-31F to retain its high export capability it must be modernized, which is precisely what the specialists of Salyut are doing now. Specifically, the engine maximum augmented thrust is going to be increased from 12,000 to 15,300 kgf while its service life is expected to grow by 30%. By late 2001 development trials of AL-31F with the maximum augmented thrust of 14,000 kgf will start, while in late 2002 the thrust will be 15,000 kgf. Modernization may involve many subunit, including automatic control systems (ACS). Temperature operating modes will be improved. The engine may be given absolutely new features. Thus, the fitting of a swivel nozzle creates a vectored thrust which considerably improves the aircraft maneuverability. At the 44th aerospace show at Le-Bourge, Salyut demonstrates an engine based on the AL-31FN equipped with a fully-variable swivel nozzle, the development of the Klimov Design Bureau (St.Petersburg). An engine like this can be mounted on light single engine fighters.”

Russian Engine To Help Bolster China Air Power – Heightens Threat Across Taiwan Strait <http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a390765434993.htm>

Foreign Affairs News
Source: Defense News
Published: May 1, 2000 Author: Simon Saradzhyan
Posted on 04/26/2000 14:53:07 PDT by Stand Watch Listen <

MOSCOW – Russia plans to begin deliveries later this year of engines for China’s fourth-generation F-10 fighter. The transfer will boost Beijing’s ability to project its force in the Taiwan Strait, officials and experts said here.
The first batch of AL-31FN turbofan engines, developed by the Arkhip Lyulka Saturn Design Bureau and manufactured by the Salyut Moscow Machine-Building Production Enterprise, both located here, will be delivered in 2000, according to Salyut officials.
Chinese officials are thrashing out final details of the deal with the Rosvoorouzhenie arms export agency here for the export to China of dozens of AL-31FN engines annually for the next few years, according to a senior production manager at Salyut.
The engines will be integrated into the single-engine F-10 fighters of the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), which are in flight testing, the Salyut official said.
A Saturn manager said Chinese officials will ink the formal contract with Rosvoorouzhenie “in the near future,” adding that the AL-31FN has been successfully tested on F-10 prototypes.
Yevgeny Moskalenko, Rosvoorouzhenie spokesman, refused to talk about the sale, saying that his company, Russia’s largest state-owned arms dealer, does not comment on its deals with China at the latter’s request.
Calls from Defense News to the Chinese embassy’s spokesman here, Gun Dzyan Wei, went unanswered.
A Chinese official based in the United States, said such a deal is possible. The F-10 fighter needs a new engine from a foreign source, the official said. But he could not confirm Russia as the source. The Saturn bureau developed and delivered to the PLAAF via Rosvoorouzhenie a total of 10 AL-31FNs in 1994, according to one Saturn designer.
The designer said April 17 that the engine was developed specifically to meet PLAAF requirements for its F-10 fighter.
The AL-31FN is a version of Saturn’s basic AL-31F engine, developed for Russia’s Su-27 fighter. The AL-31FN differs from the AL-31F in that all its electrical wiring and hydraulic systems are positioned below the engine in accordance with the PLAAF’s design request, said the Saturn designer.
He added that the two engine models’ capabilities and technical specifications are similar. The basic AL-31F has a maximum thrust of 12,500 kilograms, for example.
The Salyut official said his enterprise already has set up an AL-31FN production line at its Moscow premises. “We have prepared everything for their serial production … for China,” he told Defense News.
The F-10, China’s first domestically produced, fourth-generation fighter, likely will be armed with advanced air-to-air missiles with active radar seekers that can be launched at targets beyond a pilot’s visual range, according to a U.S. Department of Defense report.
The F-10 also likely could be refueled in the air, according to the report, “The Security Situation in the Taiwan Strait,” submitted in response to the 1999 appropriations bill. The report addresses Taiwan’s ability to defend against China’s emerging military capabilities.
Independent experts here said the AL-31FN’s pending sale is a sign that the PLAAF is close to procuring an initial batch of F-10s, whose design and performance mirrors characteristics of Israel’s defunct Lavi fighter program, which was subsidized by about $1.4 billion in U.S. aid.
A large-scale procurement of F-10s for operation from land and aircraft carriers would significantly extend the PLAAF’s projection of force in the Taiwan Strait region, according to Alexander Pikayev, a military expert with the Moscow Carnegie Center.
Chinese officials held talks last year with St. Petersburg-based Nevskoye Project Design Bureau about placing a design order for an advanced carrier, Pikayev said.
He added that China already has signed deals with Rosvoorouzhenie to secure at least 45 multirole Su-3OMKK fighters, 48 basic Su-27s and a license to manufacture 200 single-seat Su-27SKs.
If operated from an aircraft carrier and supported by destroyers and the multirole Su3OMKK, the F-1O fighters could deal a “tangible joint blow” to a U.S. Navy aircraft carrier battle group stationed in the Taiwan Strait, Pikayev said.
Staff Writer Gopal Ratnam contributed to this report from Washington.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a390765434993.htm

What you say now, idiot?

Go to Hui Tong’s site and then his links page. They’re all there in one swoop.

“When Salyut or the Chinese OFFICIALLY admit to receving engines for the J10 then we can say those engines are meant for the J10. Don’t ask me to believe your theories. Why should I or any other sceptic for that matter? What exactly is your reputaion – a poster of secondhand conjectural news about Chinese jets. Thats not analysis – thats pure speculation.”

You impress no one but demonstrate your anally retentive aesshole and outright stupidity.

Can you tell me how you can fit the AL-31FN on the MKK or the SU-27SK when these planes are designed to fit with the gearbox ON TOP?

The AL-31FN has its gearbox on the bottom. The F-16 has its gearbox on the bottom. So does the Lavi. Salyut has offiically admitted the engine is for single engined aircraft.

“Nonsense. When the US stealth aircraft were secret. THEY WERE SECRET. Hundreds of pictures of them were not available on the net on a daily basis. That is secrecy. The J10 is more like controlled propoganda.”

Bull****. They were rumored for years and there were sightings, often treated with a UFO like quality. The rumors were strong enough to persist for years. You’re not old enough to remember, since you are nothing but a noob.

“Rubbish. Don’t hide behind the secrecy strawman. If it was so secret why are so many pictures and specifications available. It is propoganda, not secrecy which hides this project. “

Obviously you’re a noob once again. Sometime in the year 2000, they jailed an engineer who actually talked about the project in the forums, kapisch?

But as time goes by, the secrecy begins to gradually wore off to the point they only discourage people from talking about it, but does not actually enforce it. This is also true with other projects like the DDG 168-171 and the new 054 FFGs—heck when the Indian Navy officers were on call in Shanghai, their tour boat went past the new 525 FFG with the new frigate on plain sight on the harbour with no attempt to detour from it.

The J-10’s creators—CAC—are in competition with another Chinese company, SAC, which builds SU-27s under license. They obviously leak because they want to gain attention to their improving capabilities without going over the line about the J-10’s technicalities.

Even when things are public, the PLA is very sensitive about technicals. The T-98 is a very public tank, but publishing inside photos of it and other things got an editor of a Chinese miltiary ethusiast magazine a visit from the “re-education” police.

“No crobato you cliam you have the data, and then quote unofficial sources. May work for fantasy and speculation, but we are looking for proof, not conjecture. Or do you want the discussion on Chinese engines to be based on only on unsubtantiated rumors? That will only leave questions open for the future.”

Proof? You are not interested in proof. You are asked to check the CDF. There is a thread on Chinese engines there, with data that has been accumulated. There is also articles from kanwa.com. This is not to mention THESE HAVE BEEN POSTED IN THIS FORUM BEFORE.

Not my problem if you are just a NOOB.

I am certanily not going to dig up through tons of pics and articles for the benefit of a pretentious idiot like kya. This is not to mention YOU ARE INCAPABLE OF READING THEM some of them. Why, can you read Mandarin?

The first flight of the WS-10A is reported through PLA Daily, Janes, Kanwa, neocon thinktank Center of Security Policy, and there is a poster of it in the Zhuhai 2002 airshow. The time frame when it happened? June 2003.

The Chinese started work on their TVC nozzles in the late nineties. It wasn’t even a secret as their AXEN project was first displayed publicly in Zhuhai 1998.

Specs are just specs (WS-10A TWR is 7.5:1 according to one Chinese clip), but the fact they achieved first flight shows true progress and achieved a milestone.

This is not to mention other engines such as Kunlun, WS-11 and Qinling, which are now or soon to be in service (Kunlun with J-8II, Qinling with JH-7, WS-11 with JL-8).

“Individuals here on this thread too admit to have not personally witnessed such events as they claim exist, however they want everyone else to believe what they speculate to be true, by hiding behind the secrecy strawman. Specualtion is acceptable only so far to genuine aviation enthusiasts. Now every fantasy is presented as a reality with no evidence other than hope and desire of the individual posters. If this is questioned, personal attacks and appeals to ignore the questions are sure to follow.”

Complete and utter B**LLSH*T.

The lack of official confirmation does not mean it does not exist. So often, there is so many denials of a project, then all of a sudden its wraps are finally revealed. Ask the US—they’re masters of it. Stealth aircraft were rumored for a very long time and many people dismissed their existance, until it came to light one more morning.

Don’t you understand the meaning of TOP SECRET MILITARY PROJECT.

Du-uh.

Just because it’s classified does not mean it does not exist. As Dubya once said “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

Neither does absence of confirmation.

The reason why speculation abounds because sufficient bits and pieces of genuine evidence has managed to seep through, and this provides a healthy and sound basis for speculation. Whether or now how much the J-10 is based on the Lavi is itself subject to speculation but there is no denying that the openly published specs on the Lavi provides an easy estimate for the J-10. While many details differ, the general configuration and size still appears the same, which still makes the Lavi a logical basestick for the J-10’s specifications and performance. There is enough pictures of the J-10, some pretty closeup, and often with many referential figures in the background to make a very accurate estimate of its size and dimensions, including wingspan. Right now J-10 is a semi-secret; you’re not encouraged to talk about it but there is no stopping bits of information about it.

Oh and the J-10 is a lot more powerful because we know—and clearly Salyut has officially admitted to supplying the engines—that is it powered by the AL-31FN, which is the only thing in the J-10 that we have a straight number on. We know how the power figure for the Lavi’s PW1120 (over 20,000lbs) while the AL-31FN is at 27,500lbs. That’s a whooping power advantage.

We also know that CAC can build light jet fighters. J-7E official empty weights is at 5,300kg, and the FC-1 official empty weight (catic.com.cn) is 6320kg, and both of them are just slightly smaller than the J-10.

So duh, this is rather easy child’s play for speculation.

It seems to me, Mr. Kya-Si, you’re a complete noob. The references and pics have been posted in this and other forums for the last two years or so. So catch up with the info otherwise take your whining elswhere, as certainly we are not impressed with your ability of not following Chinese military issues long enough.

I don’t really see the reasoning other than CAC planning to keep a close eye on the plane, much like the J-11s were relatively close to SAC.

Sounds like a good reason too.

I also think there is insufficient air defense in that area, and there has been constant complaints about not covering that side well enough, especially with India on a strong arms modernization binge. The movement of UBKs to Chongging may be partly for that reason. Note that Yunnan is among the most densely populated areas in China and is now a fast growing province. So is Szechuan, where Chengdu it, and Chengdu itself is one of the fastest growing cities in China.

The economic landscape in that region in China is fast changing, and I can see reasons why it’s time to break old habits.

I think we’re going to see more modernization and a reemphasis on the PLA units in that area in general, including army units. This is no longer PLA backwater.