I’m not sure if anyone’s seen the latest issue of AFM, but there is an article about the LCA and the problems it suffers from being overwieght and how it is grossly underpowered, the kaveri engine not really providing the solution. Hence, the reason for outsourcing the engine to foreign tenders. I think Snecma was mentioned and GE have offered a derivative of their F414 (I briefly breezed through the article)

So much for all the drum beating about using high amounts of composites to reduce weight then eh? :confused:

Also, on other threads there’s talk about the MCA taking its first flight next year??? Am I really reading this right??? How do the indians expect to fly the MCA next year considering all the problems the’ve had with the LCA????

Unles of course the indians and Russians have been secretly developing the PAK-FA for some time?

Desperation? Sorry, but you are very much mistaken. I was talking of logic & reality and not some mere fantasy.

So, why wouldn’t China sell J-11 to Pakistan? Well, regardless of what anyone says, J-11 B/BS remains a Russian design which is manufactured in China. I have no doubt that majority of its components are being manufactured in China, and tomorrow it will be a 100% chinese product, but this does not make it a chinese design. JF-17 is a sino-pak design, filling it up with french everything does not make it a property of french…or does it? Today’s China and Russia are very much different from what they were a decade or so ago. China has increasingly integrated itself into capitalist society, and realises the importance of intellectual property rights with her own R&D expanding rapidly. Fighter purchases are usually big news, and while Russia might look the other way if China keeps producing J-11 at home for PLAAF, exporting it to another country (without involving Russians) would be totally different ball game, and I dont think either country would want to take that route…for a number of reasons. One must also remember that China will not be completely independent (in terms of military technology) of Russia for some years yet and Russia of today is no loger that cash-starved country of 90s that could not do anything. Such a sale wouldn’t go down too well with Russians, if you know what i mean.

Now take a look at Pakistan. First you are mistaken that PAF has traditionally shied away from twin engined aircrafts. F-6 and A-5…both are twin engined. Athough, one might wish for PAF to maintain parity with IAF, reality is somewhat different. Take a look at PAF…its a regional force with financial limitations and has to face a foe much larger its size. PAF’s primary moto is the defence of Pakistani air space followed by providing support to Pakistan’s armed services. Keeping this in mind, JF-17 will become operational in PAF by next year, and if proven in service it will become the backbone of PAF (over next few years) by replacing F-7s, A-5, and Mirages. This will take up a lot of resources and not only for procurement of those fighters but also establishing all the facilities. PAF will also get those new F-16s and standardise the whole lot by upgrading all it present A/B and the used ones she will get from US. That is not a small number, but 5 to 6 squadrons, and all those maintenance/logistical facilities will have to be expanded. More resources would be consumed by gradual induction of AEW&C, refuellers, and air-defence systems. Only when F-16 is fully inducted, would PAF venture into J-10…and hopefully by then J-10 will be a mature technology with more advanced variants avaliable. But this would again take up a lot of resources, leaving no room for something like J-11…just ask the indians or israelis how expensive the flying of big flankers and eagles, respectively, is. Anyway, by that time PAF will be more interested in chinese next gen rather than something J-11.

One common mistake, a lot of us make is that we tend to look at only one side of picture. Pakistan will not be in any rush to attack India for whatever reason under any forseeble circumstances. Pakistani high brass knows that India armed forces will manitain their qualitative/quantitative edge over Pakistan, so they have putting greater efforts into integrating their defence over the years. Over coming few years, economic situation allowing, you will see more modernisation along those lines, and maximum effort will go into establishing a credible nuclear triad. They have their land based systems, more sophisticated air launched systems are around the corner, and a lot of work is currently going into establishing the third leg. Taken into consideration all this, J-11 B does not bring anything new to Pakistan’s defence, but greater financial burden.

You speak of logic and reality, yet you seem to forget that China has been making un-licensed copies of Russian aircraft for quite some time now. These include copies of the Mig-17, Mig-19 (J-6, Q-5 Fantan), Mig-21 (J-7). China has not only produced thousands of these copies, but exported hundreds of them to dozens of countries, including Pakistan, and yet, Russia never rasied any objections, even if it could, what could Russia do about it?

China seems to be continuing the trend with the Flanker, but what is different this time, is that it has performed some extensive reworking on the insides of the aircraft, including structural, engines and avionics. I see no reason why it can’t export a fully Chinese made Flanker to other countries, look at the fiasco of the RD-93 issue and re-export ot Pakistan!!! Russia couldn’t do much there, even if it did object on behalf of Indian whining.

The F-6 and A-5 are twin-engined, based on the UN-LICENSED copy of the Mig-19, but these were quite specialised aircraft, the A-5 optimised for ground attack while the F-6 was a basic fighter. Hence, these were in relatively low numbers compared to other types in the PAF, such as the Mirage, F-7 and F-16, SINGLE engined fighters making up most of the PAF. This trend is likely to continue with the JF-17 making up the bulk of the PAF, with additional F-16’s and J-10s.

The PAF is acquiring 18 new Block-52 F-16, quite a pitiful number considering what it will likely be up against, and will be acquiring ~30 used F-16s upgraded to Block 52 standard, in addition to the ~30 current F-16s, also likely to be upgraded to Block 52 standard. This would indicate ~80 F-16s, between 4-5 squadrons. The PAF had originally planned to operate ~100 F-16s, so all the support and maintenance infrastructure is in place to support these additional F-16s, not much further expenses would be required to support this number of F-16’s.

Induction of the J-10 (FC-20) will take some time, and we are yet to see how this version will differ from the J-10 in the PLAAF. However, one thing is clear, the PAF does need a significant amount of 4+ generation aircraft. Additional new build Block-52 or even Block-60 F-16s would have been the ideal choice, considering the experience the PAF have with the aircraft, but a number of reasons has pursuaded the PAF not to go down this route. The most obvious is an arms embargo, should the American’s change their mind again regarding their objectives in the region, and the other factor being lack of sufficient funds. It doesn’t take a genious to work out that the PAF can not match the IAF for buying power, given the larger spending capacity of India. All the more reason for the PAF to use its funds wisely and for the long term. IMHO, the J-10 and J-11 offer the best solution for increasing the number of 4+ generation aircraft. It offers the PAF a good platform to modifiy to their own needs, as it has done so with other Chinese aircraft in the past.

We can sit here debating (or arguing as is usually the case here) about the qualitative/quantitative factors of the IAF vs PAF, but it is true that the PAF are not concentrating on deep strike capability into Indian airspace. That would be too costly in aircraft and pilots. Instead, to offset this deficieny, the PAF are opting for long range stand-off capability with the air launched Ra’ad cruise missile, which in combination with its land based Babur cruise missile, should provide some strategic depth. And this is where the J-11 can come in very useful…it could be used as a carrier for the Ra’ad air launched cruise missile, in a similar role to the IAFs SU-30MKI for the launch of the Bramhos missile.

However, with the PAF concentrating on denying IAF freedom of operations, it will be no cake walk for the IAF. I don’t expect to see the IAF simply walking in and taking a leasurely strole around PAF airspace. This is not another USAF vs Iraqi airforce scenario.

how many swing settings did most VG aircraft have? I know that the Mig-23 had at least 3 different settings for flight, and Im sure I have seen at least 3 different swing settings for the F-14?