JT442Cost wise – no idea of actual figures, however it has been said on many occasions that running a complex category aircraft must follow the same rules as a commercial airliner. The fuel costs are secondary – the main costs come from insurance and maintenance costs. Perhaps those who actually do run intermediate (Hunter) and complex (Sea Vixen?) aircraft would give an idea of the actual figures.. The complex category is so sparce of aircraft which have actually flown….
On a related note, a friend’s Jet Provost costs about £500 per hour excluding hangarage and insurance. Our estimated costs for a Sea King in RAF service (MUCH higher maintenance costs) was £5000 per hour all in.
JT442Arthur, the other issue is that the Vulcan is a ‘complex’ aircraft, whereas the Hunters are in the ‘intermediate’ category. There is a world of difference in how the categories must be operated, insured, supported, etc.
JT442I think the only comparable thing would be a Boeing 707… and no carrying passengers for revenue.
Hope the snags are sorted quickly…
To give an un-biased point of view, what TVOC have managed is the continued operation of what is effectively a large 4-engined airliner with no passenger income. Relying solely on the goodwill of enthusiasts and whatever commercial sponsorship it can gather. If you tried to do the same with, say a Concorde, the running costs would be similar. The engineers may have unsurpassed experience of the type, but snags will crop up with an alarming rate. Look at the amount of time Sally B was grounded with engine faults a few years ago. We only have a couple of years of this story left, so enjoy it while its there. Pretty soon, the Vulcan will join the Victor, Shackleton, Lightning, even Tornado and Harrier as extinct at airshows.
If you think Bob Plemming has mis-managed the project, then so be it. At the end of the day his team got the thing in the air and have kept it there for a while. I’d sooner my lottery money went on the ten minutes of enjoyment I got from seeing it fly again, than to the ethnic-minority-lesbian-single-mother-olympics-art-project it would have been diverted to had TVOC called it a day.
I must have been living in a different country (actually, Sunderland probably is…) but I have not been overwhelmed by the begging bowls, nor disgruntled by the fact that if the money was not raised by the eleventh hour, 558 would be seized by the creditors. The aircraft is THE business asset after all. I do not log onto the TVOC website, because I’m not that interested in looking at stuff I can’t afford to buy. I know I’ll be lucky if I see it fly again – I’ve seen it twice since restoration. I’ll be sad to see it retire, but retire it will, and when it does, there’s no going back. It is game over for good.
JT442I was in the hangar next door…. it made a fair old noise….
JT442The frustration, I can understand and empathise with, however the BAPC provide the only way for restorers of non-airworthy museum exhibit aircraft to acheive a professional status amongst peers, unless someone has an alternative. I believe it is the case that the current management are more in-tune with the needs of our industry than ever before. They still need assistance, as we all do, but I’d suggest ‘help’ rather than ‘critisise’. (no, I’m not a member…. but then again, I have no personal projects. I am an independant consultant)
Do not get confused between being professional and being a professional. For example, I could be the world’s greatest brain surgeon with countless successful operations to my credit, but unless I joined the British Medical Association, I’d still be regarded as an ameteur with a scalpel fixation…. Perhaps the formalisation of professional standards would put too many volunteers off, but if they were covered by group membership, perhaps the current massive increase in quality in most restorations would permeate far and wide.
As an aside, I would recommend that the thread title be altered from a purely DX Shack nature to something a bit wider ranging. It is a most interesting discussion which has occured…
JT442The space is needed for other things apparently. It was never supposed to be an indefinite storage facility.
Time to go back to hiding.
JT442Just a thought…. if “large national collection A” at location “Z” cannot afford to maintain an exhibit to ther impeccably high standards, would it not be worthwhile to loan or give the exhibit to “regional museum B” at location “X” in order for the exhibit to have a chance at being restored? Particularly if one of the stipulations being that if “B” folds or disposes of the exhibit, “A” is first choice to get it back….
I realise that this conversation is rapidly departing from the thread title, but I think that it’s not simply a case of dealing with one particular exhibit – its a much larger issue.
JT442Dear Boy I was there at the begining of BAPC 1968/1969 ask the likes of Malcolm Goosey,Peter Schofield etc,etc.Sadly a lot of names are no longer with us.(Keith Fordyce,Jack Bruce ,Comdr White,etc,etc)..
… so you left rather than make it work…
With respect I was rebuilding and preserving old aeroplanes when a lot of contributors to this forum had not even been thought of !!!…
That you were, and your skills are not in question.
I doubt it .sorry to be sceptical but I have seen to many screw ups in over 43 years and the attitudes have not changed thats why we keep a low profile and dont advertise our presence and where abouts.We rely on word of mouth mainly and recomendations as to the standard of work we do and the experience of our guys..
THAT is why the national collections don’t rate private collectors who have little public presence. I KNOW your standard of workmanship, and I KNOW that you personally have the interests of the aircraft preservation movement at your core, however, what happens when the private collector ‘gets bored’ or broke, or a change of circumstances? Look at Long Marston… private collection gone bad.
There is still a great deal of them and us between the large collections and the small groups etc doing a lot of the core work and some significant work.Call it what ever you like there are a lot of names for it .Why cant the restoration and preservation communtiy large or small work together instead of a fair bit of time against each other ???………..
That is one of the aims of the BAPC – everyone talks and works together – it amazes me that so few private collections have cottoned on to the idea that in order to be taken seriously by the national collections, you need some form of professional representation – think of the BAPC as the professional body for aircraft preservation.
But the fact remains we were told regardless as our funding and the sponsor was a private individual it was very unlikely that our proposal and enquiry would even be looked at.There was even some talk about there being some conditions relating to the aircrafts future that could even mean it would be scrapped as a “Suitable” (not my wording) organisation may not be found to care for the future of the airframe.
Join the BAPC and all of a sudden, you become a ‘suitable’ organisation with written agreement that the preservation and protection of the aircraft comes before financial gain. However, in this particular case, IWM stated that a suitable organisation must be an ACCREDITED MUSEUM. Any arguement with the secretary could have been delt with last weekend when you met him and said you were going to send the paperwork in. I’m surprised that you have applied twice already… did he cash your cheque?
There has been mention of the aircrafts condition as we understand it the outwings and control surfaces are off the airframe and there is also a significant amoun tof the interior either missing or just placed inside.We were informed that shortly after the airframe arrived the cockpit was taken out with the idea of creating a cockpit display.This did not happen and so the information tells it the interior was lost/mislaid for some time and no one could recall where it had been sent for storage……………
I’m afraid your information is absolutely incorrect. Having personally done a survey, I can say with absolute confidence that very little is missing – an instrument or two at best. One or two black boxes are stored elsewhere. The cockpit is intact. The outer wings have been removed and do show moderate amounts of damage, but no-where near the ‘catastrophic’ levels described by some people on here. It is in a quite remarkable condition given that it has spent 30 years outside…
JT442Cycling or motorbike proficiency…..
JT442Cycling or motorbike proficiency…..
JT442Online auction sites have, in my view, taken preservation away from the museums. In the case of this Lightning cockpit, 20 years ago the ATC would have realised that this was an MOD owned item (as is anything owned by the ATC), and sanctioned its donation to a museum rather than sale to the highest bidding scrap man.
Bitter? yep. Saddened by the consumerism and subsequent ridiculous pricing within what used to be a hobby for those who couldn’t afford a full aircraft? very.
Similar price… only this one flies… http://www.afors.com/index.php?page=adview&adid=19764&imid=0
JT442Northern Aviators! Via Paul Kiddell
“The owner of the beautiful Vans RV-7 that visited the GNFI late on the Sunday, Alan Weals, was tragically killed yesterday in a mid-air whilst doing the flt test of his friends RV at Shoreham yesterday.
Aviation is such a small world…
They did make it up to Unst after Eshott and enjoyed a 2000 mile flight.”
JT442Here’s another tail… this time an F-27 at Coventry a few years ago… something to do with a strong wind, jumped chocks, hit a hangar….
JT442When I was young, I saw 558 perform at several Finningly Airshows, and it left a lasting impression on me. (namely an obsession with all aircraft). My children have now seen the Vulcan perform. Their children will not see anything as spectacular.
The boy-offspring now has a healthy obsession – not solely down to the Vulcan, but it did help. (It also helps that we have one less than 500 yards from home…). Incidently, is he now the only four year old who knows a Dragon Rapide on sight….?
JT442Quite so, a hangar or suitable building must be part of the wider scheme. This kind-of links to what I asked about the DX CASA/He111 – one of the conditions being that it goes indoors, so where would it go if it were offered..? Indoor space is so very limited. That said, even if an aircraft is indoors, it does not guarantee its survival against the elements – continual corrosion prevention, monitoring and rectification is absolutely essential. I bet if you asked any collection about its outdoor exhibits, there will be a policy of inspections and ongoing rectification. Sometimes, that process is not as formal as it should be, but it will be there!
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