This is not correct!
The optical region („far field” counterpart) rules apply when 2Pi·r / λ >10. In this region, the radar cross section of a sphere is independent of frequency. Here is the radar cross section of a sphere, σ = Pi·r2.
The radar cross section equation breaks down primarily due to creeping waves in the area where 2Pi · r. This area is known as the „Mie” or „resonance region”.
But your marble is smaller as 2Pi·r / λ >10. Your marble and your ping pong ball is in the suboptical area and for this area are some another rules valid.
Has your marble around the 1/3 diameter of wave lenght than ocour Mie-Scattering and your RCS is 400% greater as your σ = Pi·r2!
Without the Rayleigh-Scattering.
Can you link me to your information so I can read up on this.
I think DAS is currently up and running – its based on the F-22s MLDs which have similar capability. Thats why technically the F-22 does have an IRST system – without the laser range finder.
Where? I look through thread bu cannot find it?
Sorry here it is:
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f35targeting/assets/eodasvideo.html
Interesting video on DAS.
The RCS does not correspond to physical size!
But a metall marbel has minimal a four time greater RCS!
MIE-Scattering!!!
The RCS follows not the formula σ = Pi·r^2!!!
But we must use this formula!
σ = Pi·r^2 · 7,11 · ( 2Pi·r / λ )^4That make a σ =0.01m^2 for a F-22!
RCS (dBsm) = 10·log10(σ/1 m^2)
RCS (dBsm) = -20dBsm!
Wip all this public avaible RCS values in the trash bin!
Read this link:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/electronics/q0168.shtml
Here it claims toan’s methods of converting marble geometry into RCS are correct. Personally I have not done much work in this area – so I am all ears if you can prove to me its wrong.
Remember the F-22 and the Typhoon have played together, but its all a bit hush hush.. (from around 2005 onwards)
When the F-22 beats an opponent 100’s to 0 its all over the press, with pictures a pilot comments, but the Typhoon ones were hushed up???.
Now you could say it never happened and hasn’t ever happened… but wouldn’t you find that a little odd in itself??
I’m sure it will be OK for the F-22 with a bit of RoE tweaking.
Cheers
You seem very determined to believe exactly what you want to believe – from a certainty on DACT and a certainty the supposed results :).
________
PAXIL CLASSACTION
It is theoretically possible to use the F-22s MLD system to cue the AIM-9X. It has 360 degree coverage and will always have the location of enemy fighters within its scopes at WVR. As a result it may prove to be a much faster and more accurate form of cueing than say an HMS – especially if the software guys are confident it won’t miss anything the eye wouldn’t and if they are confident that it is at least as good as the eye with regard to NCTR.
________
HERO HUNK
Perhaps Western Europe should dump them all and save costs by buying off the shelf American products? :diablo:
Why weaken our aerospace/defense industry, especially when we are extremely competitive? Are you trying to lower my chances of getting a job in the UK? :):confused::eek:Or perhaps you are being sarcastic :).
________
BODY SCIENCE
correct about the 120D, wrong about the 9X;it was introduced more than 5 years ago:
He was refering to the F-22. Not the SH. But increment 3.2, for the jets earmarked is planned to be finished by 2012 – and it has a few things it needs to implement – so some of them might be done earlier than others. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see some of the jets are seen with 9X much earlier than 2012.
________
Paxil settlement update
Thanks for injecting some sense into this thread Fedaykin…
The people in this thread that believe electronics are the seperating factors between the EF and SH don’t really understand the importance of raw performance and flight mechanics. It is also obvious they have become blinded by PR marketing campaigns – that make out that fighter aircraft performance peaked in the late 80s…. It’s not hard to believe either – especially as the unaware look at brochures which make claims like: F-15 = Mach 2.5 EF = Mach 2. What they don’t realise however is that there is a huge difference in operational capability from a flight performance aspect when you compare jets like the F-22/EF and Rafale to an extent against jets like the Su-30/F-15/Superhornet – which are still handicapped by legacy airframes.
The big improvements come in acceleration – sustained high speed cruise and sustained subsonic and supersonic agility and at altitude. You will struggle to get an F-15C to accelerate past Mach 1.3-1.4 in an operational BVR engagement – it just doesn’t have the supersonic kinematics – and while its radar gets better and better to give it an earlier warning – the opposition continues to reduce its RCS and improve its jamming capabilities. The Superhornet will likely fair even worse in most situations – especially in an environment where it is not graced by offboard SA gathers/support aircraft.
The Eurofighter on the other hand will likely be cruising at speeds in excess of Mach 1.2 – with supersonic accleration that will likely get the jet to speeds of Mach 1.8 in the same time that the SH gets from Mach 0.8 to Mach 1.3. Not only this – the EF will also have significant cranking ability – something the SH with its shocker of a supersonic wing will fail at miserably by comparison. This dramatically improves survivability – especially if similar missiles are employed by both types – as the SH will need to fire its weapons much later than the EF – not just because the EF assumes a significant BVR kinematic advantage from its inital acceleration – but because the EF can crank aswell as any jet can – what this means is the EF can engage in a high speed sustained turn to get its **** out of trouble – it will do this while maintaining much higher speeds than the SH will – this means the EF will get much more range between it and a missile fired by an SH than the SH would from a missile fired by the EF. This effectively shrinks the NEZ of the missile employed by the SH.
That is also ignoring that the EF will effectively operate at a higher ceiling than the SH – it might be as much as 15 000 foot +. This has a huge effect on BVR kinematics and with all these factors combined – it won’t be unrealistic to assume the EF could generate 20-40% greater range with its BVRAAMs and shrink the effective range of the SHs missiles by a 20% + margin aswell.
________
Launch box vaporizer
Russia Sells SA-20 to Iran
By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie
Irrespective of Kremlin denials, Iran is buying the Russian-built SA-20 strategic-range air defense system, say senior U.S. government officials.
Deployment of the system – a threat previously thought to be only a bargaining tool – would mark a capability leap in the Middle East and considerably improve Iran’s ability to defend its nuclear facilities. Western officials are concerned that Tehran is pursuing nuclear weapons.
“The Iranians are on contract for the SA-20 [which NATO designated ???Gargoyle’],” says one of the U.S. government officials. “We’ve got a huge set of challenges in the future that we’ve never had [before]. We’ve been lulled into a false sense of security because our operations over the last 20 years involved complete air dominance and we’ve been free to operate in all domains.”
The proliferation of so-called double-digit surface-to-air missile systems – such as the Almaz Antey SA-20 (S-300PMU1/S-300PMU2) – poses an increasing threat to nonstealthy aircraft, and will force changes in tactics and operational planning. The SA-20 has an engagement envelope of roughly 100 mi., and Iran may be signed up for the S-300PMU-2 variant with even greater range.
Russia could use Belarus as the route for a sale, allowing Moscow to deny any direct involvement, says a U.S. official. It would likely take the Iranian armed forces as long as 24 months to become proficient in the operation of the SA-20; however, any deal would almost certainly cover training support in the interim. Israel might be tempted to preemptively strike suspected nuclear sites prior to the SA-20 becoming operational, or even try to hamper delivery.
“The beginning of proliferation of double-digit SAMs is more of a concern than the potential air threats [such as Russia’s Sukhoi Su-35 and China’s Chengdu J-10] that are coming into service,” says the government official.
The presence of Russian double-digit long-range SAM systems in the region during the recent Georgian incursion had a direct impact on NATO planning – resulting in a decision not to use the Boeing E-3 AWACS for surveillance.
The SA-20 and, even more so, the SA-21 Growler (S-400) now entering service pose an increasing problem for mission planners using conventional strike aircraft. While low-observable aircraft offer greater latitude for operations, they are not totally immune to air defenses.
The Lockheed Martin F-22 with its all-aspect, -40-dBsm. radar cross-section signature can operate within the engagement envelope of the SA-20 and SA-21. But the Lockheed Martin F-35 with its -30-dBsm. signature, but not all-aspect stealth, is at greater risk. The rear quadrant of the F-35, particularly around the engine-exhaust area, is not as stealthy as the F-22.
Because of its aging stealth design, the Northrop Grumman B-2 also has limitations in the amount of time it can spend within the range of double-digit SAM systems, since small signature clues can become cumulative and offer a firing solution. The U.S.’s next-generation bomber program is aimed at developing a low-observable platform capable of operating irrespective of the threat from systems of the SA-21 class.
During the recent conflict between Georgia and Russia, the caution with which double-digit SAMs are treated was obvious. NATO wanted to monitor the fighting and refugee problems and track combat forces with its fleet of recently updated E-3 AWACS surveillance aircraft. They were banned from the area because the Russian attack columns included mobile SA-20 batteries. From their location in the Georgian breakaway region of Abkhazia, these SAMs covered airspace over the eastern Black Sea where the E-3s would have needed to operate.
“If a coalition organization wanted to establish [surveillance or reconnaissance] flights or a no-flight zone in an area populated by double-digit SAMS, you couldn’t do it with nonstealthy aircraft,” the government official says. “These modern weapon systems are going to deny us strategic and operational options that in the past we haven’t had to worry about.”
The Iranian deployment of the SA-20 would most directly be a threat to Israel’s fleet of advanced, but nonstealthy, F-15Is and F-16Is. Israel would need to rely on countermeasures – such as airborne jamming, false-target creation and network attack – rather than on platform survivability to counter the introduction of the Gargoyle.
More capable point-defense systems – which would likely be used to protect SA-20 sites, for example – are also being introduced into the region. Syria is acquiring the SA-22 Greyhound (KBP Pantsyr), which uses a vehicle-mounted combination of cannon and missiles intended to provide defense against aircraft, helicopters, precision-guided munitions and cruise missiles.
New threats, involving advances in commercially available electronics, continue to rapidly mutate in the area of secure communications and command and control, as demonstrated in Mumbai, India. During the recent attack, gunmen talked by cell phone and Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP) to their commanders in Pakistan for orders about avoiding police, attacking additional sites, and selecting hostages for execution.
And during the 2006 fighting between Israel and Hezbollah in Lebanon, the non-state group was able to set up command-and-control networks – using commercially available, Chinese-built, high-power cordless phones – to shift combatants and rocket launchers. These messages could not be intercepted by the Lebanese or Israeli governments.
“[Part of the threat is] the new phones that are coming out with GSM, Satphone, Bluetooth, 80211G and 80216 [technologies] all built into one handset,” says an electronic warfare specialist in the U.S. aerospace industry. “It’s already happened. A multifunction handset switches you through all the options to find a usable route. If your GSM link goes out, it will automatically hook up to the nearest 80211G link, get the message to an Internet node and then go VOIP. That kind of connection technology is here, and it’s cheap for the bad guys. All you have to do is be clever about how you use it for command and control.”
Recent pictures of the interior of a new Chinese surface-to-air-missile command-and-control vehicle show two Lenovo laptops and the commander of the integrated air defense system talking on a Blackberry. In the battery’s briefing vehicle, there’s a VOIP connection. These are all good, cheap commercial products.
Defense officials say that with the new telecommunications used by opponents, U.S. planners have to be much more detailed about how electronic attack is conducted against certain networked, computer-controlled threats such as integrated air defenses.
The question arises: Is there any good news in this scenario? Perhaps there is at the intersection of electronic attack and cyberwarfare (a new specialty called special-purpose electronic attack, or SPEA) and at the overlap of electronic attack and high-power microwave weapons (called nontraditional electronic attack, or NTEA).
SPEA moves into cyberwarfare because operators are looking at more than jamming external emissions. They are dealing with affecting layers of digital instructions, called protocols, that run the network. They are using electronic attack, but it is against a computer network and not just a radar or radio signal. So there are new procedures that can be used in the electronic attack domain that are special and unique. NTEA involves producing long-lasting, instead of temporary, effects on enemy electronics.
“It’s not solely about effective radiated power [for jamming] anymore, it’s about control,” the EW specialists says. “It’s about what part of the protocol stack can you get to and, possibly, take control of. A lot of it is not about preventing them from communicating; we’re just controlling it in some way.”
________
FALCON (AUSTRALIA)
I think the opposite. Aside from RCS, radar and ECM that is impossible for an outsider to know, for BVR transonic acceleration and agility and supersonic agility is decisive and here EF is probably better.
For the close in dogfight with guns low speed capability is more important and it seems as SH shines here. For short range missiles in WVR EF probably has the advantage though.
I agree with your assessment – I’m fairly confident the EF will knock the socks off the SH in BVR. A lot of factors are important – it is up to you as the analyst to sift through what is marketing PR and what is actually operationally available and relevant.
The EF – with its higher cruise speed – supersonic acceleration – supersonic agility – vs. an F/A-18 using the same BVRAAMs will have a significant missile energy advantage. What this translates to is:
If this was SH vs SH – the NEZ of the two missiles would be equal – lets say X km vs X km. With the EF vs SH – it is probable – that if flown correctly – the EFs missile with have an NEZ of X+ while the SHs missile will have an NEZ of X-.
AESA radars used on a VLO platform are fantastic – they give the best LPI characteristics. But on a non-VLO platform there limitations are exposed… Thats why Selex claim there is no current AESA radar that outperforms the Captor – range wise except perhaps the latest APG-63v3 and the APG-77v1. Their range shrinks on the edge of their gimbal – the exact position which is crucial to BVR… especially if outnumbered or if your not supported by AWACs. A lot of the so called EA modes – are future promises of AESA and are by no means operational currently. The USAF says it intends to pursue the EA modes when the F-35 is in the inventory.
________
Taoism forums
Work Begins On Advanced Datalink For F-22
Dec 19, 2008
By Graham Warwick
The U.S. Air Force is developing requirements for the next upgrade of the F-22 Raptor following the decision to equip the fighter with a stealthy datalink under development for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
?The F-22 program has begun the weapon system requirements development phase of Increment 3.2, which includes Multifunction Advanced Data Link [MADL] capability,? Lockheed Martin says.
The manufacturer was awaiting selection of an advanced datalink so it could begin work on the Increment 3.2 upgrade, to be fielded in 2012/13. Northrop Grumman?s MADL was selected over Rockwell Collins? Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) link.
MADL has been chosen to tie together U.S. ?anti-access? forces, including the F-22, F-35, B-2 and potentially the U.S. Navy?s proposed unmanned combat air system. F-22s already have a unique Intra-Flight DataLink (IFDL), but it has performance limitations.
Integration of MADL on the F-22 will require new radio hardware, modification of the existing IFDL antennas for MADL frequencies, and ?software integration of interoperability messages,? Lockheed says.
The Air Force initially planned to upgrade only 80 F-22s to Increment 3.2, but Pentagon acquisition chief John Young told Congress in November that additional funding would be requested in the fiscal 2010 budget to also retrofit the first 100 aircraft.
Under the Defense Department?s Advanced Tactical Data Link concept, MADL is only one of several datalinks planned for anti-access networking. For the B-2s, this includes an EHF satellite-communications link providing connectivity to the Global Information Grid.
?Currently the [F-22] program does not have a requirement for an additional two-way datalink beyond MADL and IFDL, but architecture decisions are being made to enable straightforward integration of additional capabilities,? Lockheed says.
________
Extreme Q 4
One question that may have already come up:
If the Raptor is not as advanced in terms of avionics as the F-35, as some have suggested, why is there such a strong block to exporting the Raptor and yet the total opposite policy towards the F-35?
One of the reasons is the software on the F-22 isn’t as tamper proof. Decoding it is apparently a lot more achievable. Secondly the F-22 has an EW suite that is potentially much more potent than the equivalent piece of kit on the F-35. The AN/ALR-94 has a lot more antenna farms than the system on the F-35 – and it is continuously being upgraded from what I have read. According to many pilot statements – there are a lot of systems on the F-22 – sensor wise that we as the general public don’t really know about.
The only thing the F-22 doesn’t have is an exact equivalent of EOTS – while there is internal room for the system – as with the side cheek arrays. While DAS is a derivative of the F-22s MLDs – with more focus on the A-G role – hence why it is fused with the HMD and can provide pictures to the helmet – upgrading the F-22 to DAS level – might just be a matter of upgraded software. The F-35s processors are a lot faster – but the F-22s are still upgradable to the same standard.
Another factor might be the level of VLO – that seperates the jet – along with the superior performance. The JSF VLO was designed with affordability in mind.
________
ECSTASY REHAB ADVICE
http://www.f-16.net/news_article3153.html
F-22As scheduled to deploy to Japan & Guam
December 16, 2008 (by 13th Air Force) – The U.S. Air Force is scheduled to deploy two contingents of F-22A Raptors to the Pacific theater in January 2009 for approximately three months.
Current plans call for 12 of the fighters to deploy to Kadena Air Base, Japan, from Langley Air Force Base, Va., and another 12 to deploy to Andersen Air Force Base, Guam, from Elmendorf Air Force Base, Alaska. The deployments support U.S. Pacific Command’s theater security packages in the Western Pacific.
The F-22A is a transformational combat aircraft that can avoid enemy detection, cruises at supersonic speeds, is highly maneuverable, and provides the joint force an unprecedented level of integrated situational awareness.
As part of continuing force posture adjustments to address worldwide requirements, the United States continues to deploy additional forces throughout the Western Pacific. This is the latest example of the flexibility U.S. forces have to meet their ongoing commitments and security obligations throughout the Pacific region.
________
UGGS