I see Rand have made full use of Dr Carlo Kopp’s technical data.
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HONDA H ENGINE SPECIFICATIONS

All the sources I have seen is that it has a speed of Mach 3.5 – while it uses a lofted trajectory – it won’t have a horizontal speed of Mach 3.5 – yet I still allowed for it – calculating its horizontal speed at Mach 3.5 – I also allowed for Mach 3.5 for its whole duration of flight – I didn’t even take into account acceleration times.
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FIX PS3

“the launch of rocket R-33 (successfully destroyed target) was carried out at the distance 228 kilometers”

Anyone with any reasonable English capability – would interpret the above as: The R-33 was launched at 228 kilometers from the target. But in your case – I can understand your misunderstanding.
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Vapir no2

The Bell/The Hook – a horizontal cobra. I can’t remember exactly what it is called and its now annoying me.

Edit: finally the Hook I think is the answer.
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LovelyWendie

Without TVC you cannot engage in sustained post stall maneuverability – in actual post stall – where you are below your stall velocity. Definitely not with the same degree of controlability and saftey.
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Gm Foods

1)With regard to modern aerial tactics – the answer in most cases would be no! When you add HMD/HOBs to a platform – it makes post stall maneuverability obsolete.

2)No – the ability to maneuver in the post stall regime – is completely offset by the much more relavent capabilities of HOBs/HMD.

3)No. You really need thrust vectoring – as it provides a degree of control that is otherwise lacking in an aircraft that engages such low velocity/lift flight. Having two fins is not a prerequisite. One needs a tall/large enough fin – without 3D TVC – to achieve the same yaw control. But 2 fins isn’t absolutely neccessary.

4)No. Most modern combat won’t take place at airshow level – or at airshow speeds. There is a huge KE + PE advantage from being up high and fast – if a fighter takes on something higher and faster – he will be at a disadvantage – as such it will lure pilots into that domain even if he is not suited to it – in his particular jet. Turning at 250 mph and 2000 foot – really isn’t the bees-kneees!
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LovelyWendie99

Not really. Air-combat will take place, where the intruders are to find. It is the attacker who does determine the level and speed of such combat. 😉

Exactly – and with the Typhoons advantage in that realm – it will be the aggressor. A Mig-29 or a Su-30MKI hugging the deck against a Eurofighter is only going to futher the EFs advantage from a KE and a PE point of view – and a sensory perspective.

How do you know whether an airshow display is the planes “max” performance. Simply you don’t. And, lmraptor, I too have read that article about his display, but what jet isnt holding something back?

I’m not saying I know – all I am saying is from the official channels – the jet has not been utilised at airshows to its maximum performance – and I suspect that it is *mainly* from a sustained agility/maneuver perspective. As it is starting to show some really impressive new maneuvers – there is one that involves a few 360 degree rolls – then it cranks 90 degree’s one way – then 90 degrees the other and still maintains good speed – while suffering no altitude loss. I’m pretty sure many jets – especially the newer Eurocanards and the F-22 are holding back many aspects from there display. I doubt – the EF has had its low/slow FCS fully programmed into it for example. Their budgets are spent on more pressing aspects!

LMraptor, after reading your replies I was wondering what have you been taught on the aerospace university or whether is it a kind of PR stunt saying you are studying there?

Hey Marty :). If you don’t believe I study at Bristol – doing Aerospace/Aeronautical Engineering – I am more than happy to give you a reference number – my real name – contact addresses – my Tutors telephone number – my lectures information and a sample of the lectures we get exposed to – better yet – if you ever stay in Bristol – I will give you a personal tour of Queens building – I will show you Blade – show you our composites/structures labs – whatever you wish :). As for what they teach me – I sometimes ask myself exactly that :). But as for it being a PR stunt – I dont have any public relations to concern myself with. I go back on sunday – to abuse the new blood at good old freshers week! While lectures resume on the 6th of October – by which I won’t be on here as much.

In regard to low/slow maneuvers with no combat utility, ever heard about John Boyd and his combat maneuver or stunt called “flat plating the bird”? Try to read USAF air combat history once.

Yeah well – I would rather focus on the future. Thats what I have been taught. As for – low and slow – I agree with your accessment of me – I see no real practical utility – when modern 360 degree optical tracking systems on a platform such as the Typhoon with HMD and ASRAAM will be-able to nail any sucker WVR – in any aspect of the 360 envelope – where being low and slow is only going to shrink your ability to evade the missile.

Even if you counter with the argument that missiles aren’t guarrented success as in Vietnam – I’d like to see a good pilot ever get into the situation where he is vulnerable to a guns kill!

Hmm, you hardly understood the main reason. Yes, at last those airshow stunts might boost selling power, bcs they are telling the buyer about carefree handling characteristics/qualities at high lift coefficients, no loss of control when stall and spin tendencies.

With a modern FCS on a platform like the Typhoon it – has carefree handling in every aspect of flight the FCS will allow it to engage in – it won’t need to fly at massively high alpha – it won’t have any trouble in recovering from a spin – and it won’t be aiming to get anywhere close to its stall speeds. See above – the missile is designed to do the work nowdays – no point in bleeding your energy if you can get electronics and a missile to fire without pointing your nose at the target. Mabye its not such a coincidence that after all the hype during the 90s over TVC – we have what? About only two operational TVC jets in the world almost 20 years later.

PERIOD. I think once the F-22 will need the same kind of PR, when it is offered to the market.

If the F-22 is ever made available to air forces other than the USAF – and that time period is starting to shrink rapidly. I doubt low-level super-maneuverability is going to be the biggest selling point of the jet if it came to a PR campaign – I think they’d focus much more on VLO/Supercruise + agility at high alitude and speeds/Avionics. I mean that is what apparently seperates the jet from the others 🙂 – if you believe it – isn’t it?

Therefore showing high-alpha maneuverability is not pointless at all. Maneuverability is one part of the whole package.

Of course it’s not pointless but WVR agility/maneuvering has an answer now that is going to start making it obsolete – in the form of HMD/HOBs!

One would rather being going very fast – with good energy management – taking a few shots in WVR with an HMD/HOBs – maximising your own weapons KE and PE – while being at the very edge of your enemies engagement envelope – and giving you the chance to flee. Instead of being nice and low – very slow snapping towards a jet with TVC – bleeding energy and then being a sitting duck for his wingman! Ones head can turn a lot faster than a jet :).

A Mig-29 pilot excercising a simulated dog-fight against a Dutch F-16 debriefed, that once he tricked the F-16 with a kind of slow moving kinky maneuver in a vertical climb while the Dutch had been unable to follow the Mig tail bcs of its electronic AOA limiters preventing to enter post stall regimes. Huuuh… bull$hit, how can it be done?

See – above – im sure that trick is lovely. But luckily the world of aerospace and defense isn’t going to standstill. HMD/HOBs would surely beable to counter that – why waste your own energy and point your nose upwards – induce large amounts of drag – when you can simply look up – lock on and fire!

Maybe, a kind of crazy trick Mr. Boyd used in dogfights several decades ago. You are now surely asking why havent you seen that manuever on airshows(or youtube). You will never see it on airshows bcs of safety regulations, therefore you will be dogmated to rest of your life that AIRSHOW TAIL SLIDE AND AIRSHOW COBRA are the only two PR stunts of legacy fighters MIG ans SU.

In the west people generally – are starting to move away from this :). Mabye our pilots aren’t as good as the Soviets – mabye they struggle to find any tactical use 🙂 for these maneuvers – because they simply aren’t as good – I don’t know. If I grad Marty – I will hopefully not restrict myself to just witnessing airshow maneuvers :).

read twice that above…Not to mention that since ninities the SU and MIG are performing other breath taking maneuvers, for example as stated before a 360 degree turn within 12-13seconds. Huuh…can you calculate turn rate from that, Isn`t that impresive? I hardly doubt the F-22 will ever be able to make that 360 degree turn any tighter.

They are fantastic machines 🙂 of an older philosophy that have found their counter – in form of HMD/HOBs – with legacy agility in the higher regimes of flight. The F-22 down low and slow probably won’t be able to turn any tighter than that. None of our current crop will be doing any better than that – especially since it is fully operational – with a full fuel load in almost every demo – with a full avionics suite and not a tailored jet designed to help sales.

But the F-22 and the EF are designed to be much more agile up high and fast – than the legacy type fighters – that is where they excel. In regimes where we finally have the sensor and weapons tech to fully support the performance of the jet – that is if you believe in the USAF focus on BVR. I personally think missiles are advanced enough to rely on them more so than in previous conflicts.

A common mistake of all US fan boys to think that a boxy and unslated EAGLE has ever been capable to take its chances to match up against the SU in maneuverability. Well, pilots from Lipetsk training centre know better, when several years ago a few F-15s visited Russia. Be sure their were not just giving rides in backseats again as claimed in alibism by US pilots when Russians visited Langley. Lipetsk pilots had always been in a good mood on post-flight debriefs saying the EAGLE maneuverability is somewhere between the Mig-21/Mig-23. 😀 Of course, Russians were just poking fun of F-15 manueverability, considered as an awkward aircraft.

🙂 I have heard about that. But firstly don’t call me a US fan boy – I find it quite offensive. I can associate many aspects of my culture more easily with Russians than I can with the average yank. As I say I just appreciate advanced technology when it comes around – when and if PAK-FA comes out – I’m sure it will blow my mind. I have huge respect for Russian engineers and their ability to make amazing systems – with $hit amounts of investment. Many of my lecturers at uni – share broadly similar views. As I have said before – I have lived in the States for a year – which was a pretty bad experience in my life. The culture is just to different from here in the UK – for me to adapt. All sources I have – state the F-15 has at worst parity and at best a slight advantage up high and fast – nothing to write home about – even Kopp who is pretty favourable to the Su family in his bid to buy the F-22 – claims the F-15 has a slight advantage in the Transonic/Supersonic regime.

Common, for Christ sake!!! 😀 what have been done during those years of flight testing and billions of USD spent on R&D before F-22 became OC?? Rather, he meant that HE needs to fully exploit capabilities of the F-22, bcs of his miserable 250 hours behing the Raptor joystick.

Lol 🙂 – mabye he is covering his tracks :)? But seriously – with the budget cuts – the huge delays – the fact it isn’t Russian :). And more importantly the fact that the focus has been on aspects that are much more important to the jets overall “lethality” – are the reasons why the budget has been deflected elsewhere. Why does an F-22 pilot ever want to get low and slow. To me there is no point. It gives up the jets main advantages. There are far to many things the F-22 needs integrated before it focuses on aspects that are most likely irrelavent at this time.

regards
M

I agree with Sens on this. The dogfight will take place wherever. There is no writen rule that they will take place at high altitude or low.

See my answer to Sens – up high and fast will give a Tiffy an advantage over an opposition who sits low and slow and is detectable.
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LovelyWendie99

Exactly – which is logical – the F-22 doesn’t need the same kind of PR – as say the Flanker series has done over the years. To me most of the airshow stunts are directly related to PR – boosting selling power of the jet. It is interesting that the low/slow envelope hadn’t been fully exploited yet. Which vindicates the argument that most of those maneuvers have no combat utility most of the time!
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Honda S360 specifications