Thanks
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Expert Insurance

Can you elaborate IRAF_PILOT on why it was a disaster? I have read about the declassified USAF experiences of the Mig-23 and they came to some similar conclusions – but it would be great to hear your experience.
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Expert insurance

Why would India develop the Astra if they have plans to buy off the shelf BVRAAMs from Russia? Probably because anti-fighter missiles like the proposed Izdeliye 180(R-77 upgrade) are nothing but hot air at the moment – with so many promises coming out of Russia’s missile agencies over the last decade and so little actually being delivered, India have a right, like me to be very skeptical. Meteor on the other hand is a reality – being designed for the anti-fighter business unlike K-172 and R-37 which probably have limited capability against fighter sized targets.

I’m also skeptical of of claims that put MKIs avionics in the Tiffy’s league – a larger radar is possible in the MKI – but thats about it, while it is likey the EFs frontal RCS would make such a difference moot – if not in favour of the Tiffy. I would personally be very surprised if the MMI/DASS equivalent on the MKI is in the same league.

While the MKI has a range advantage the Typhoon can’t bridge – in Indian colours – the Typhoon will be subject to many upgrades that will be seen on the MKI. Where in certain flight regimes it is arguable the Tiffy has a performance advantage that the MKI can’t bridge. If both are flown to their design philosophies I can see the EF scoring higher kill ratio’s.

Not to downplay the MKI – its brilliant, I respect it, it’s beauty – but again, it’s coming to the limit of the Flankers design potential. It faces a plane that is more focused in the air-air role – being smaller, less draggy, less visible and more agile despite what airshow enthusiats believe.
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Voyeur French

I’d love to see star49’s source on 600 km dectection of 1m2 targets – I don’t want anymore silly assumptions either.
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HEADSHOP

A source for 1m2 at 600 km please? All I have seen is 1m2 targets get picked up at 400 kms.
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Ffm Tube

that’s 5,000 more than the F-22.

Officially at least :). Many “experts” currently estimate the F119 has a thrust rating of in the 35 000lb – 40 000lb range.

While the F119 are due to get incremental thrust improvements on their current thrust settings that will probably come to fruition before the PAK-FA.

Not to mention that in war time settings it is possible to get significantly improved performance at the cost of engine life. Western engines generally have longer engine life and therefore perhaps a bit more to play with in terms of thrust.
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The Cigar Boss

It is interesting that the Singapore competition apparently deemed the Rafale as being a bit low on thrust in hot-and-high conditions. http://defence-data.com/current/pageda65.htm
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LovelyWendie

Well Nick – I guess we will have to agree to disagree :). At least from a purely A-A perspective – point defense – that is.

While I can accept the Su-30MKI has certain advantages such as greater range – two man crew – price etc.

I do believe however that the EF has a supersonic performance/agility advantage that can force its enemy to engage in the same respect, ie fast and high unless the Su-30 pilot wants to accept less missile range and a smaller NEZ – allowing the first shot to be taken by EF.

Assuming a head on BVR engagement(what I described as the standard notional BVR engagement or in other words the only one in which we can attempt compare the two jets) and of course assuming the use of the same weapons, which would be the case if they were both in IAF colours.

Assuming they are part of the same system as they would both be in the IAF.

As such I believe – like you believe otherwise – that the EF is the best A-A option available for the IAF.

Also refering to your point 7 – I was proposing the view that legacy + support vs EF = similar kill ratio – whereas EF + support > legacy + support. Otherwise the EF would be very much a foolish jobs program – that should have been replaced by an advanced F-15 variant years ago – at a cheaper price – available years back. Where the Eurocanard supersonic performance philosophy was a mistaken one that was perhaps also reflected in the Russian design such as Mig 1.44.
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Spice Weed