ObserverIan
You are absolutely correct, Airborne Interception Sets could not distinguish between friend or foe. I have a copy of a memo from about Aug 1940 regarding A.I. which states this.
As you say, it was up to the Pilot to make a visual identification and there are a number of references in various documents, continually reminding Pilots of the need to exercise great care and placing the onus on them to visually identify correctly and decide whether to open fire or not, with references to the rules on challenge and reply.
Regarding the Dornier 17 you mention, the F.I.U. O.R.B. (Tangmere) for 22.7.40 says:
“That night Flying Officer G. Ashfield shot down a Dornier 17. The Commanding Officer controlled him from the Tangmere Sector Operations Room, on data supplied by R.D.F. Station Poling. Pilot Officer G.E. Morris, Observer, first saw and recognised the enemy aircraft. Sergeant R.H. Leyland, A.I. Operator, gave the A.I. directions.”
23.7.40
“Some A.I. tests were made by day, and at night the final trials of the flourescent sight.”
The example you mention is interesting, the ground controller would vector the Blenheim within A.I. range of the aircraft he wanted him to intercept (based on info from the R.D.F. Station). The Blenheim would search using his A.I. when in A.I. range and then make a visual interception/identification close up.
All interesting stuff!!
Thanks for your reply.
Mark
ObserverR.N.L.I. Response for 16th August 1940 Isle of Wight Area
Thank you for your email. The only lifeboat stations which existed at that time in the area were Yarmouth and Bembridge on the Isle of Wight. There were no mainland lifeboat stations in existence at the time west of Selsey or east of Poole. According to our records, Bembridge lifeboat launched at 1345 on 16 August following reports of an air battle and aircraft in the sea.
Nothing was found and it was classed as a “no service”.
ObserverSkypilot 62
Thanks for your response.
Research is difficult if you want detail about what happened and why. Sometimes there were survivors or members of the Public involved, then accounts of what happened have survived, as surviving crew challenged initial Inquiry decisions, or newspapers have reported events.
Mistakes were made and things covered up (they still are in war). Did you see John Simpson’s program of the Yanks in Iraq about a month ago? Simpson and the BBC were filming whilst an American Radio Op with them gave an American Pilot an Iraqi position, but instead of giving co-ordinates he told the Pilot vehicles by a road junction ahead. Next the American Pilot opened up on the Yanks, Simpsons BBC film crew and their vehicles, as they were also near a road junction!
Also other records which may assist in getting more info seemed to have been disposed of, or parts of files removed. Some P.R.O. files seem to be made up of parts of several files.
Unfortunately many UK Police and Coroners records have been disposed of too. I believe Steve was able to use these for the basis of his research.
Fortunately the Isle of Man have retained their Police and Coroner records also.
We hear about openess being preached. But openess and the actual reality appear to be different. I think a lot was destroyed after the war.
Yet in other files there is great openess about firing on friendly aircraft, one file has a long list of British aircraft damaged or destroyed by ‘friendly’ British defences.
Regards
Mark (Observer)
ObserverKevin
I expect you have noted that Hurricane P3616 is Pilot Officer Martyn Aurel King, .
His aircraft crashed Nr Southampton and whilst descending in his parachute, the LDV nearby apparently opened fire (according to a book, by S.P Mackenzie, Ass. Prof. of History, University of South Carolina, Columbia) damaging his parachute and sadly he fell into a garden of a Southampton house.
The A.A. records at the P.R.O./N.A., Kew for the 16th August 1940 for the 251st Hy A.A. Bty R.A., state: “At 13.40 hours 1 parachutist seen dropping at bearing 290. His parachute was torn and he fell amongst houses near The Avenue, Southampton – 3000 yards from Site 25. Another came down on bearing 215”
The 251st Hy A.A. Battery R.A. HQ was at Bassett.
The 1″ O.S. War Series Military Map Co-ords are 848365 for Site 25.
Apparently, the Hurricanes came down near the outskirts of Southampton, in fields.
James Brindley Nicholson also parachuting down from his Hurricane was wounded by the friendly fire and survived.
P/O King was buried at Fawley on the 21st August 1940 with 5 crew of a Whitley which collided with the balloon barrage and crashed north of West End, S.E of Eastleigh (my grandfather Sgt C.L.G. Hood the Whitley Observer was one of those buried at the same funeral) along with 7 occupants of a Hudson from RAF Silloth which also collided with a barrage balloon in a separate incident shortly after taking off from Eastleigh Aerodrome during a yellow warning (one record say’s a red warning).
Regards
Mark
ObserverYes Flood
The one I gave Kevin would be the very same Hants Air Crashes.
Thorney Island was under 16 Group Coastal Command, (C.C. H.Q. were at Chatham). A previous Forum Member mentioned 16th August 1940.
The Squadrons operating from Thorney at around that time (permanently and tempory) were;
No 22
No 42
No 59 Blenheims
No 235 ) See also St Eval and Bircham Newton Station
No 236 ) books for these Squadrons
16 Group HQ Communications Flight Chatham
August 1940 References to Thorney Island. Aircraft down in the sea. (Unfortunately I did not record all the incidents).
On the 15th August 1940,
S/Ldr H.W. Hickey D.S.O. was the Officer Commanding HQ No.16 Group RAF
The Duty Staff Officer was F/O S.E. Swaine
15th August 1940 16 Group.
1 Blenheim was detailed to carry out recco Moon 2.
15th August 1940 Thorney Island ORB 1938-40
59 Squadron “Moon Recco 2 Aircraft”
15th August 1940 Thorney Island
59 Squadron 0310 Op 54 Appx ‘E’ P.13 T.I./05/16/8
(this was probably an instruction for the 16th as it is referenced 16/8
15th August 1940
06.00 hrs Heinkel 115 in position YZMF 4500
16th August 1940
09.40 hours Ref C4/G1/16/8 Instruction to 16 Group and Detling. Our A/C to search for dinghy with crew of Whitley.
Sighted at approx 0720 hrs.
MTB from Dover Co-operating.
16th August 1940
A No.59 Squadron Blenheim was hit at Thorney Island whilst on the ground during the German raid at teatime, 18.00 hrs.
17th August 1940
In the evening a No.235 Squadron Blenheim, went off the runway at Thorney Island after landing, causing undercarriage damage
A No.235 Squadron Blenheim came down in the sea near Thorney Island, whilst attempting a night landing.
AIR 25/301 16 Group ORB 1936-1941 HQ Communications Flight Chatham (References to Thorney Island and aircraft crashes, incl those down in the sea)
AIR 25/316 16 Group Appendices August 1940
AIR 28/838 ORB Thorney Island 1938-1940
AIR 28/844 ORB Thorney Island June 1940 – Dec 1941 Appendices is a typed Narrative.
AIR 16/341 Channel Operations E Boats and Shipping
14th August 1940 Coastal Command Op Instruction No.55.
The Battle Squadrons will remain under the Control of No.1 Group, but administered by Coastal Command.
AIR 25/376 17 Group ORB. No.17 Group was Based at Gosport (& also the Area Distress HQ), Has references to 42 Squadron at Thorney Island. (September 1940 pages are missing).
AIR 25/377 17 Group Appendices 1938-42
Appendices pages for 1940 missing.
Hope the above helps in Kevins research.
Mark
ObserverMy grandfather Sgt C.L.G. Hood; Isle of Man and Jurby
Hello Skypilot62 and Members of the Forum
Andrew said he knew Steve and that they were Members of their local Aviation Society.
Yes, I have Steve Poole’s book “Rough Landing or Fatal Flight” International Standard Book Number ISBN 1 901508 03 X
Its a brilliant A4 size, 148 page book, with a lot of details regarding many of the crashes on the Isle of Man that he has covered, with various photographs too.
We have emailed each other back and forth, about his book and my grandfather’s accident.
I have collected document photocopies, relating to the crash involving my grandfather from; Observer Corps, Southampton Defences, Balloon Barrages records, his Service Record (photographed), Recognition and Identification Procedures for British aircraft returning to the British Coast, A.A. Southampton/Gosport Layout information, Operational details, returning crews intelligence and information from general files about our aircraft in collision with our Balloon defences in the Autumn of 1940.
I have some information from Fighter Command ORB and 10/11 Groups, Balloon Command, 924, 930, 932 & 933 Balloon Squadrons, Bomber Command and 4 Group Bomber Command, Driffield Station and 77 Squadron Records. Some material covering a few days in August 1940, some covering the week and other information for parts of 1940.
In respect of my grandfathers crash, both the Court of Inquiry, No 12 Balloon Centre Inquiry, Balloon Squadron Statement with eyewitness accounts, Police records, many Observer Post records and Coroners Inquest records have all been destroyed unfortunately.
Therefore it is impossible to get to the exact truth of what happened before the Whitley crossed the coast. 4 Group records say that one of the Dishforth/Driffield Whitley’s was fired upon by a friendly aircraft but there was no damage. None of the crews who return mention this though.
I have many of the details relating to the fatal collisions involving balloons and cables for August 1940 too.
Obviously to the Forum member who asks about the CWGC, yes I have seen what the CWGC hold, which I believe is all on their website. My M.P. contacted Geoff Hoon and in a reply from Ivor Caplin M.P. he assures me I have all the information available about the crash in the official M.O.D. file, which I have to say is very little, or next to nothing. Over the years the Government files including those in the P.R.O./N.A. at Kew have unfortunately been thinned out, perhaps a lot was removed at the end of the War too. Many files relating to Royal Naval Air Stations, known as Ships Books (Logs) in that area, including HMS Raven (R.N.A.S. Eastleigh) are sadly now missing, along with the detailed Intelligence reports of many A.A. batteries. So its really difficult to get any detail as to exactly what happened.
What I have found though in Record Office files, tells me a fair bit more, but raises many more questions than answers.
This is why Steve Pooles book is absolutely brilliant and I think he has done extremely well to research his book, get all the facts and information together and write an interesting and factual account of what happened in his book. It is most interesting reading into air accidents on the Isle of Man!!
Yes, when I’m in the Isle of Man next time (which I hope is very soon), I should be very interested in a ‘guided’ tour.
Best wishes to all over the holiday period
Mark (Observer).
ObserverAir Crash
Kevin
I know of a file with numerous air crashes listed for Hants, compiled by and Copyright of Dave Fagan. I will have to go off this site to access details. Will email you as soon as I can find the Air Crash list.
They may or may not help, but its worth a try.
Regards
Mark
ObserverVisit to Jurby Aerodrome and a Whitley Crash 15.8.40 Nr Eastleigh
Hello Skypilot 62
Thanks for your info about Jurby Aerodrome.
Tell me more about the Sunderland crash, which damaged the hanger roof?
I was at Andreas, I.O.M. on holiday, been to the Isle of Man 5 times now (twice on a motorbike in the late 70’s/early 80’s). I managed to bribe my other half, to drive me to Jurby Aerodrome and to the RAF Reserved Cemetery plot at Andreas and Jurby Churches, (as I cannot drive now on health grounds).
I also managed to get half a day reserved to the Air Museum at Ronaldsway, where I spoke to Andrew Burden of the Museum, I have been trying to email him with details of my grandfathers RAF Service (Sgt Claude L. G. Hood Air Observer) at Jurby in early 1940, but my emails are being returned.
My grandfather died in a Whitley crash returning from Ambes (Bordeaux) when their bomber was losing height. Apparently the Bomber went over the Gosport area and into/over the Southampton/Eastleigh Balloon Barrages and Artillery Zone on the 15th August 1940, the barrage was actually blamed for the crash at 03.34hrs.
However they had sent a Distress Message whilst crossing the English Channel near the east of the Isle of Wight, before even crossing the English coast.
This aircraft which crashed at Eastleigh had lost height from 10,000 feet according to records, crashing into the barrage at Eastleigh (balloons at 4,000 feet) and coming down near Eastleigh Aerodrome (R.N.A.S. Eastleigh/H.M.S. Raven).
The Observer Corps records show that the Whitley was unidentified before the crash. Also the Portsmouth and Gosport Barrage had been raised from 800 feet to 4,500 feet shortly before the Whitley crossed the coast.
At 03.47hrs the Balloon Flights report to the Gosport Balloon Squadron that 2 of their balloon sites are reporting kinked cables. The Eastleigh Squadron also report a kinked cable 24/7 due to a collision with a Whitley V.
Northern France and the Channel was covered in 10/10ths cloud, 6 Wellingtons crashed/force landed that night and another Whitley was lost after colliding with the Langley Barrage.
I also went to the A. A. Museum (I think the 15th I.O.M. Regt.) at Douglas (they have a building on the Water Board premises).
Best wishes
Mark (Observer)
ObserverI find it unusual that a Battle of Britain aircraft was found in the trees as late as 1981, without anyone discovering it sooner. But interesting/unusual stories turn up?
I should imagine it was in the ground amongst a group of trees or in a wood.
If you have remembered the account reasonably accurately and a body was discovered, then the Police would likely be called. So you could write to all the Police Stations in the New Forest area asking if anyone recalls dealing with the find, they may even have records on file, or direct you to the Dorset or the Hampshire County Record Offices, where some Police records exist as well.
If you find at the Records Office that the file is ‘closed’, then write to the relevant County Chief Constable requesting permission to view the record and a letter of authority to take to the Records Office when you go to view it.
I recently got several of these.
If you can get the Pilots name and a date when found, then you will have something to start from.
Do you know where the orignal report was? (i.e. Which newspaper?). Try Newspapers Local to the area at County Records Offices and Libraries around the New Forest. Make an appointment to view them usually on Microfilm, but hunting for your arcticle will likely be a lengthy process, so you will have to do it yourself. Of course remember that the story may not have been published or Published in another newspaper.
Try
Southern Daily Echo Newspapers
Test Lane
Redbridge
SOUTHAMPTON
SO16 9JX
see if anyone there recalls it, they may not, so you will probably have to search through old newspapers of 20 or so years ago.
From the Pilots name you will get other information I am sure from local newspapers.
If you have the Pilots name, then you will be able to write to the MOD AHB at RAF Bentley Priory and they may be able to assist. Someone there may recall the incident anyway.
Perhaps CWGC when you have his/her name, as they may be involved in his burial in 1981?
With a name you can trace date of death by ordering a Death Certificate (about £7.00) which usually gives details of the Squadron reporting the death to the Registrar (usually his own Squadron). The Registrar of Deaths may even recall altering the original Death Certificate to record the place of death. (Speak to your Registrar as I am not sure if they are amended or not from Missing to a place of death). If they had to issue an amended Certificate in 1981, then they should be able to find it in their indexes, but I am not sure if they have to amend or not, so ask the Registrars for all the New Forest Registry Districts.
He would have been reported missing, but if you then have a Pilots name and date of death, you should be able to trace a/c details in the Operational Records Books at the P.R.O.
Newspapers are a good source at Record Office and Libraries, but expect a lenghty hunt and then they may not have covered the story, or it may be covered in a regional newspaper, like the Southampton Echo Edition for that area, or one of their Reporters may recall something which will give you clues for your research.
Also try a piece in the Readers Write column of Newspapers.
Try the aircraft recovery/aviation groups, I never have, but they may recall something about it.
When bones are discovered the Coroner is usually called. Coroners Inquest Records are closed for 100 years but DIRECT RELATIVES and descendents can request copies on an Inquest if the document survives.
However its worth writing to all the area Coroners as I am sure they would release the Pilots name to you, even if they dealt with it in 1981. But you must write formally stating your interest as you have done on this website enquiry and a search fee of £6.00 is payable if they find any information for you, even though they may retain virtually all the details of the Inquest at the time.
The County Archivist may have been involved or contacted, if you are fortunate enough, the same Archivist may still work at the Council.
If you have remembered correctly, then you should be able to find out all about him, the aircraft, his squadron, but it takes days of searching sometimes through newspapers and a full account often takes many months, sometimes years, if you want to trace every detail.
I have been on my grandfathers 1940 RAF accident for 4 years and I am building up a fairly interesting picture of what happened, despite all the Inquiries, the Coroners Inquest and Police records being destroyed.
email me at:
mhoodATgalcom.fsnet.co.uk
Change ‘AT’ for the @ symbol (done to stop spam)
Let me know how you are getting on.
You should trace something even if there was an attempt to keep it quiet or cover it up after, as nearby landowners will recall it. Perhaps it is Local Authority land, try their Parks and Amenities section.
Mark
ObserverJurby Tower Planning Permission?
Thanks Steve for your compliments on the Jurby Airfield (Isle of Man) photographs, it was spitting with rain and I had a job to keep the camera lens dry.
May be bad news on the Control Tower, Planning Permission was being applied for at the time of my visit in late July, by a company. I should have enquired at the Planning Department (Council Offices in Ramsey) and lodged an objection if detrimental, but the title suggested an extension and use for Offices I think. Hope they don’t ruin the external structure and keep it structurally original, despite the current paintwork you comment about.
I took them with an old conventional film Yashica SLR camera and scanned them at about 100 or 125 d.p.i I think, on my H.P. V45 Fax/scanner/ printer/copier.
The V45 set-up disc is not compatible though with Windows XP, so I can’t use all the scanning functions with the V45 such as Optical Character Recognition (OCR) to scan/edit printed docs and it will only cope with just slightly more than A4 width. But longer docs than A4 if you use the % reduction for things like the old Birth Certs ect.
On the V45 small pics/paper cuttings must be large enough to avoid skewing as they leave the guides and go onto the rollers of the Auto Document Feeder. Its great for scanning/copying/printing in colour/B.W. Also has a fax and does not use that heat sensitive roll paper. The V45 is not too expensive.
Mark
Observer
ObserverRunway Picture
Observer2 Wellingtons which crashed 14/15th August 1940?
Kevin
Thanks for your reply.
I had looked at the copies you suggested but drew a blank too!
I had a photocopy page of the Harwell ORB covering that night 14/15th August and apparently a Marham Wellington landed there from the Bordeaux raid? I knew that Wellingtons (Marham), Whitleys (Driffield & Dishforth), Blenheims (Wyton) and 36 Hampdens were on the Op that night from official records and those you suggested.
So I contacted six website email contacts and Malcom Barrass emailed me back with 3 Marham Wellington crashes, a/c numbers and crash/force landing places.
Been to the PRO, have all copy documents of Marham RAF Station and Operational Records of Marham that night. 12 Wellington aircraft took off and only 6 made it back to base (crews safe apparently).
The others crashed/force landed, or landed at the following:
a) 1 Crashed Titchwell near Brancaster (Nr Hunstanton) badly damaged, (NOT Hunston per War Room Daily Summary PRO)
b) 1 Crashed Bicester.
c) 1 Forced Landed Boscombe Down (damaged apparently).
d) 1 landed at Boscombe Down
e) 1 landed at Middle Wallop
f) 1 landed at Chisledon Camp
No mention of one landing at Harwell.
Kevin, will email you direct later in the week with any new developments.
Thanks for your interest and reply.
Mark
Observer2 Wellingtons Which Crashed 14/15th Aug 1940?
Hi
UPDATE
I have found that some, or all of the Wellingtons that night on the Bordeaux Op were possibly from MARHAM, because a Wellington from Marham landed at Harwell on the 14th August, whilst on the Bordeaux Op.
The information about the 2 crashes at HUNSTON and BICESTER was mentioned twice in the War Room Daily Summaries, the target was an Oil Refienery at Blaye, Nr Bordeaux, 14/15th August 1940.
Any help with the 2 Wellingtons which crashed at HUNSTON and BICESTER would be fantastic!
Thanks
Observer
ObserverUnits that used Cottam Airfield, Yorks in 1940
Thanks dhfan
Yes, I found on the internet that later in the war it became a bomb dump. One site said a satellite for Driffield since September 1940 and another said it was also an MSU of 42 Group.
Thanks again for replying
Observer
ObserverUnits and Use Of Cottam Airfield, Yorks in 1940?
Hi All
I am stuck well and truly with this one can anyone help?
I’m after the Units/Sqn’s which used Cottam, Yorkshire in August 1940, or what work went on there?
Location about 11 miles West of Bridlington, apparently it had concrete runways, but never used on Ops.
Thanks
Observer
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