nocutstoRAFWhy?
If the penalty for not building the CVF is 2 billion as has been as suggested (actually more than the cost of PoW) then you get an awful lot of new light frigates for 2 billion.
You will still get 6 – 8 light frigates for a billion.
I am beginning to smell a cunning ruse on the part of the NSC to actually spend more money and blaming Labour for it.
Sadly now I have to actually start work 🙁
nocutstoRAFWhile it is not ideal would you accept that 1 CVF, retaining all the amphibious assault ships, agreeing to replace Ocean in 2018 with an off the shelf LDH, 6 Type 45, 7 Astute’s, 6 Type 26, 4 C2 versions of the Type 26 and 10 3,000 – 4,000 tonne light frigates, 8 minesweepers, a single air group of F-35B, 4 Merlin’s in MASC configuration, plus some additional ships in the RFA is actually a fairly balanced fleet and likely the best we can realistically hope for at present?
After all it looks like they need to save roughly a total of £74 billion as they are being asked to settle 10% reduction plus clear the overspend of £38 billion.
Also the saving of being asked to build something else is as follows the options are 2 CVF’s, not enough escorts, 1 CVF and pay out the penalities, 1 CVF and use the penalties to build light frigates (which is all they have expeirence of at present), build no CVF’s, waste the money already spent on QE and either pay the penalities or build slightly more light frigates. I know which option I would take!
nocutstoRAFOne of the bitter ironies over C1 and C2 is that our CVSs have got stacks of life left in them and could make brilliant C1 or C2 platforms. But that ain’t gonna happen.
What would you do with the CVS’s to turn them into C1 or C2 platforms?
nocutstoRAFOne option being considered is to build one carrier, and offset penalty clauses on the 2nd by offering work on light-frigates.
Do you think that the NSC reads this thread (I am off to soak my head to stop it swelling due to the ego boost that NSC seems to be thinking the same as I did a few posts ago)!
:):):)
The question is how many light frigates will they build, I am betting on a 1:1 replacement of the Type 42/22 and 23’s the decide to pay off now, with a lot less C1/C2 in the future. Still lean manned modern light frigates would be a good way to go as long as they are not pressed into escorting the one CVF in a shooting war.
nocutstoRAFIt might be argued if they are not going to buy F-35B’s any time soon or in any sort of number, then keeping the frigates is better than CVF with just Harrier’s.
You are likely right, I think the suggestion is that the proposed 18 C1/C2’s will be reduced to 12 which means between 8 – 10 actually built. Therefore if they can squeeze some light frigates or whatever out of the budget I would be happy.
I know everyone thinks I am too optimistic, but I think that BAE and the carrier alliance would likely accept whatever penalties they are entitled under the cancellation clause for the CVF’s as new work – as it benefits them to build something for the ~£3 billion, as it a) might lead to exports, b) leads to follow-on support and upgrade contracts. However what they can build quickly is going to be limited to what they can dust off quickly which would be either something based on the stretched River class or the Frigate 2000 design, or for support ships.
I think that all the NSC can see is the missions now, which for the RN is only anti-drug and anti-piracy, for the RAF only air lift and ISTAR and for the Army just COIN. The irony is if they hold another SDSR in five year times they will likely reverse many of the decisions made today.
nocutstoRAFWell the only good bit about the previous few posts about the Mirror and the Sunday Times suggests that the MoD might actually spend money on ships tailored for the presence mission in the Caribbean and Indian Ocean which I hope might be fairly radical in their design to take advantage of the last thinking in modular missions.
Still its depressing about the CVF’s and the main annoyance is the CVF’s are not unaffordable but the air groups are looking like they are, and there is no amount of playing with different configurations and types which will solve it if the MoD is dead set against expand it’s Fast Jet inventory.
nocutstoRAFI looked a web-site where the author used google earth to work out the placement of SAM sites in North Korea and I was surprised at the number placed in the North of the country … makes you wonder if North Korea is also worried that one day China might solve the problem of North Korea by military invention rather than economic and political support – after all if you are going to end up with a US ally on your borders it is better to do it on your term’s than the US term’s.
nocutstoRAFI looked a web-site where the author used google earth to work out the placement of SAM sites in North Korea and I was surprised at the number placed in the North of the country … makes you wonder if North Korea is also worried that one day China might solve the problem of North Korea by military invention rather than economic and political support – after all if you are going to end up with a US ally on your borders it is better to do it on your term’s than the US term’s.
nocutstoRAFFor Somalia’s patrol a BVT-style Mothership carrying and supporting/protecting 4 smaller fast-going patrol boats would be totally AWESOME: one ship to cover 5 areas, plus perhaps a couple of Lynx choppers as well.
It would give the coverage of a whole fleet in one go.
Obviously great minds think a like as I am sure someone else mentioned a similar design (I think it was Distiller but if I have credited the wrong person please shout) – based on ship carrying four CB90 fast combat boats
nocutstoRAFSounds like the Danish Absalon class??
I guess it would be similar but with more emphasis of aviation than the Absalon so I guess it would be closer to 10,000 tonnes than the Absalon. The Absalon is just one of many ships out there that are better suited to the modern world than what the RN currently has.
nocutstoRAFif cameron and osborne and fox (they are all in it together and this is obviously manipulation of the media) are talking about the cold war legacy are they just doing that to excuse the carriers and typhoon or are they doing it to lay the groundwork for something more startling?
What would/could radical changes are you imagining? In my (very likely flawed) opinion the most radical changes I could imagine for the new uncertain world is as follows:
A massive enlarging the light elite forces of the UK, cross train them as extensively as possible, while standing down mechanised infantry, artillery, engineering and armour as cadre and expand the reserves. In this configuration I could see the Army halve (thereabouts) but then increase the TA and other reserves to at least 100,000 men, if not higher based on them standing up entire battalions if need be. I would also give incentives to companies (like lower NI contribution if they employ reservist) and individuals (a better pension) to encourage recruitment into the TA
Then I would focus future RAF assets on refueling, tactical and strategic lift, and ISTAR, I would only acquire enough Typhoon’s for defence of the UK and Falklands, and then buy more F-35B’s. I might also be tempted to do something radical like either giving control of the F-35B to the AAC or transforming the JHC into a separate Royal Helicopter Force with its own budget.
I would concentrate the Royal Navy on sea lift, including a range of faster LSD (A) ships able to do 25 knots for long periods of time, and possible build a new class of littoral assault ships carrying 200 – 300 light forces, 4 helicopters (either 4 Merlin’s or in extreme cases two Chinooks and two Apahce’s), 2 x CIWS, CAMMS, 4 x Sigma A2 30 mm guns (with 7 LMM’s) and a 155 mm gun for shore bombardment. I would also build light frigates – they could either escort the sea lift and replenishment ships in low threat areas or carry out presence missions. Obviously I would also keep the CVF’s and current amphibious forces, and still have room for more conventional escorts.
Obviously at this point the Treasury would need to increase the MoD budget by about 20% and this would still need root and branch reformation of the MoD and the armed services to make the 20% increase effective.
nocutstoRAFI would hope for both a cheap off the shelf C2 light for now and in the future a C2 heavy on the C1 hull but with cheaper weapon and sensor fit.
I think you are right on the Chinooks. In the near future potentially we are loosing the Puma’s and Sea Kings and we could do with a good number of utility helicopters to fill the gap like say 30 – 40 AW149’s
nocutstoRAFBy the way the Type 23 is a 4900 tons, 133 meters, 9000 miles at 15 knots vessel, and the Type 22 B3 at over 5000 tons is unlikely to be so short-legged. I can’t find a data about range at the moment, but 4500 miles seems too little.
Sorry – here is my source for Type 22 having a range of 4,500 nm
nocutstoRAFI was using the Khareef as it seemed to be in the right size class and therefore I could use it as a price guide. If the new light frigate design (which is actually a low end C2 not C3 which is a different kettle of fish) had a range of 4,500 nm it would have the same range as a Type 22, and if the French can manage with a 4,000 nm with their La Fayette class we can make do as well. It comes down to what you want, the best money can buy or something reasonable that fits in the budget (and in this case has the bonus of supporting UK ship building and likely lead to more exports).
nocutstoRAFWell eight or so low tier 3,500 tonne frigates can be cheaply made the UK.
Okay – assuming that any new low end C2 design in the 3,500 weight class would cost roughly the same as the Khareef it would appear that 8 new light frigates would cost roughly £1 billion, maybe less if we shifted Harpoon, Seawolf from retired Type 22/23’s and used a MK8 guns instead of Oto Merala 76/62 Super Rapid (based on 3 Khareef plus training costing £400 million, but counter balanced by the fact they use different systems to the UK). I think this is a good use of money but I am not sure where you could cut £1 billion from to pay for them.
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