Golden_ArrowBecause , like I have said a hundred time to several Indian posters now, THEY DONT GIVE OUT ACTUAL NUMBERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sure, sure. We’ll know when it comes to the crunch won’t we? The FSAPDS shortage during Kargil, the F-16s grounded during 2002s were good indicators.
Golden_ArrowDream on dude, IN has not even decided what it wants, and as to your Russian friends delivering look at how long it has take to deliver the SU-30s and the various problems India has had with almost every piece of Russian kit, I for one will be happy for them to take Indias hard cash again and take the Indian forces and taxpayer for a ride…..
IN has not decided, that’s why they signed a contract, right 😮
Sure, the Russians take their time, but they get it to us. Can you compare the Russian deliveries of Su-30 MKIs vs American F-16s? 😉
That’s what hard cash gets as opposed to freebies.
Golden_ArrowFrance has never sanctioned Pakistan, please explain the recent deliveries of Mistral systems, upgraded Mirages and Agostas if we were under “sanction driven shortages”!?
I think between 50-100 may be a rough guestimate
I think you forget the stoppage of Mirages and work on agosta by France during Kargil 1999? 😉
If you have read about recent deliveries of Mistrals, why not post about deliveries of Exocets?
Golden_ArrowYes I agree, US equipment comes with strings, whats your point?
The point is that you cannot count the P-3Cs until they land in Pakistan and get handed over to PN.
Same goes for AH-1s and PA.
OTOH, Indian defence orders are unlikely to be disrputed because they are paid with hard cash and the suppliers don’t put strings.
There is more certainty of IN getting MiG-29Ks than PN getting P-3Cs soon.
Golden_Arrowits resonable to assume Pakistan has a significant number of exocets.
Define “significant.” Is it 5? 50? 500? 5000? 😮
Given the sanctions driven shortages and past record, it is reasonable to assume the opposite of what you claim.
Golden_ArrowWow a senate staffertold you that? Thats funny, another one told me we were in line for the F-22 after the USAF!
Yes, congress needs to approve it, but please, lets keep the “my mates, best friends, uncles dog told me” out of this heh!?
The bills are on the floor and it is not “my Uncle said” type thing. Do you want me to post the bills and laws passed again? :diablo:
As to the conditionalities, it was made explicitly by the White House in a briefing after the $3 billion aid was announced at Camp David in June 2003.
http://islamabad.usembassy.gov/wwwhusvisit030602.html
Q: Did you set benchmarks towards that road? I mean, is there anything that you point to as an indication of his commitment towards democratic principles, considering his track record?
SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: My colleague and I were having this discussion. I mean, basically, coming from a functioning democracy we can tell when a country is moving away from democracy or towards democracy. And as I said earlier, I don’t want to harp on this, because there’s not an automatic causality. [b]But, look, we’re going forward with a major bilateral assistance program that is predicated on the assumption that in Pakistan we have a partner that is moving against terrorism, moving against proliferation, and committed towards moving towards democracy. [/b]
Like I said, promsies are one thing. But U.S will not deliver anything unless Pakistan keeps meeting its benchmarks. There is no free lunch and here are no free P-3Cs.
Golden_ArrowPAF FAn:
Golden Arrow
PAF stated Chinese avionics have improved, is this such a “tall claim” to make!?
Nope. That wasn’t the exact claim.
The full claim, paraphrasing, is :
“Two years ago, we first looked at Chinese avionics – it was bad. Then we looked at Western ones because Chinese tech was bad. Later one we took a look at J-10 avionics and were “not impressed.” But with our “guidance” they finally made something “acceptable.””
So within a few months PAF has helped China catch up with Thales and FIAR? 😮 :rolleyes:
If PAF has this ability, why not use it to upgrade their own existing radars?
Phrozen,
Bottom Line: China is offering a more or equally capable Radar, why on his Dying planet should PAF opt for expensive option..thats the only reason I think would make PAF go for Chinese….lets not forget PAF has been evaluating all the options.
My postion is very clear: PAF will choose what is more capable and within rational price limit.
Do you have any proof that “China is offering a more or equally capable Radar”? AVM Lateef said that Chinese radar tech is years behind West. I may be “impressed” and my neighbor’s Nissan Maxima, but that doesn’t mean that it is better than my boss’s BMW 😉
Golden_ArrowGolden Arrow
Thats all I stated orginally, that these are very much in the pipeline and you can expect them soon…..
Every such transfer will go through annual Congressional approval and given the history of US-Pak relations, you cannot count on planes “on order” as usuable assets until they are actually delivered.
I pointed out the bills pending in US Congress in another thread. A retired Senate Armed Services staffer recently told me this:
Moreover, even if a decision is made to go ahead, the actual transfers of the combat aircraft could be halted at any time if Congress or the administration became sufficiently upset or unhappy with Pakistan or the domestic political situation inside Pakistan changed.
Soon after the original $3 billion aid package was announced in June 2003, there was an SAO briefing. The SAO who was on background clearly stated that the aid comes with strings. While the administration is unlikely to tamper with the non-military aid, the weapons systems components comes with different qualifiers.There are unstated and stated benchmarks that Pakistan will have to meet to keep the aid tap open at a constant level. These include education reform, the A.Q.Khan situation and counter-terrorism co-operation. Note that were something to happen to Musharraf, we may be back to square one.
Golden_ArrowI have no disagreements with what you said.
I’m not saying that FC-1 with Chinese avionics and Radar is a bad fighter. In enough numbers, it will be a capable asset.
All I’m pointing out was that there were many people here who made tall claims on FC-1s potential radar and avionics and how there will be no other fighter on this planet that will have its capabilities and yet be under $20 million per unit etc. and how they will sell this plane to Country X and Y. These same people trashed Russian radar capabilities repeatedly.
Now they are scurrying to defend what is obviously a second choice radar/avionics combo even as per the FC-1 project head of PAF. I have nothing against Chinese technology, but I find it incredulous to see that just with PAF’s “guidance,” China can magically gets its avionics up to par with FIAR or Thales in a matter of months. That seems to be extremely arrogant coming from someone who cannot design his own avionics. I can go to my local mechanic and tell him to soup up my car engine to have 50% more HP with my “guidance”, but if that dude hadn’t done it until now, my guidance ain’t gonna help him do it now, will it?
In real life, an emphasis on cost usually results in compromises with technology, unless you have your own R&D ability.
Golden_ArrowWell, my my Harry, I must be in a good mood today, here, for the nth time is an official link confirming the extra P-3s, again, I will understand if you need even more evidence, bt tried ringing Colin Powell and he just simply refuses to take my calls……
http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/aid/fy2005/CBJ05_SouthAsia.pdf
Those P-3Cs have been requested, not delivered as per the FAS link posted by Steve Touchdown. Just like the AH-1s are still undelivered.
If you count them for PAF, count the Gorshkov and MiG-29Ks for IAF.
Golden_ArrowGiven enough money, FIAR or Thales or whoever in the West will make you whatever you need.
But the key factor is money.
There was a serious disconnect between the price quoted for FC-1 and claims of Western avionics and radar.
The last few comments of AVM Lateef clearly hint that for the low $$$, only China can give PAF something that they cannot get elsewhere while noting that it is years behind Western tech.
BTW, with Chinese radar and avionics, one can forget about FC-1s handling Western AAMs and AGMs 😉
Golden_ArrowDude
Latif was refering to an assesment of Chinese avionics done 2 years ago. You are using word manipulation to suggest this was a recent post. Can we try and be honest in our postings here.
He was pointing out a period of time starting from two years ago.
So in a matter of a months to a year, PAF “guidance” has allowed China to improve avionics from bad to acceptable?
Maybe PAF “guidance” is the secret. I’ll call the F-22 project team to tell that we have a silver bullet 😉
BTW, the radar claim by Lateef is about today. He clearly said that Chinese tech is years behind Western ones while talking about the radar.
Also Did you not claim that the FC-1 for PAF will have Grifo or Thales radar?
Golden_ArrowPhrozen,
Do you want me to post past claims on this forum by certain of your compatriots claiming FC-1 is getting Grifo and this and that from Western nations? 😉
BTW, you have done some selective posting yourself. Right below that part you posted, Lateef says that Chinese radar tech is not as good as the Western ones. Those are his words, not mine 😉
The explanation is clear. If you want Grifo or Thales, you need to pay $$$, which would increase the unit cost to way beyond the around $20 million currently quoted. So our man is settling for Chinese tech which he himself trashed.
As to the guidance part, I find it funny. It’s like my friend saying that the Kia car he has is not as good as the BMW, but with his “guidance”, Kia has made a car equal to the BMW. 😉 If he is able to provide “guidance”, then why not make it himself. 😉 I’d like to know what this “guidance” is. :rolleyes:
Golden_ArrowAs usual the Indians claim that Fc1 will get worser. Anyway… Golden arrow… The AFM of this months tells you that the Chinese have done very well at the moment. So more then Six months later the avionics are improved and PAF is accepting them. Adding to that the less time (development and integration of avionics and weapons) needed to get decent planes up and running… You guys seem not to accept reality.
How do we know about that PLA? PAF guy trashes Chinese avionics with every breath he took and then accepts it immediately.
It could also be that he has no choice but is putting a positive spin on what he has to live with.
Maybe it is you who is not willing to accept reality.
BTW, I’m not claiming that the FC-1 will get “worser” :rolleyes: but just pointing out that certain people here made pompous claims on FC-1 getting advanced Western avionics and radar and the whole kit and kaboodle, but will now settle for Chinese stuff which is likely to be clones of Russian ones.
It’ll be amusing to see one person, who has taken pains to trash Russian radar and avionics now defending Chinese clones of the same. I’m sure he will now say that Russian tech is bad but Chinese will put some extra “masala” while cloning them 😉
Golden_ArrowHaving a chinese RADAR and other avionics means the FC-1 can carry the SD-10, PL-11 and maybe even a C-80X.
SD-10 should give it decent BVR capability.
Absolutely. I’m not saying that Chinese radar isn’t good. Available reports indicate that it is likely going to be a derivative of some Russian radar.
The point is that certain people, supposed good friends of China, have been trashing the Chinese tech in radar and avionics and said that PAF FC-1 will have this, that and the other from the best available French or Italian stuff but are now scurrying to run away from their own past claims.
Grifo S7, RC-400 and every other Western radar is in the market today. So, why are 50 FC-1s getting Chinese stuff if the final solution is not Chinese?
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