Golden_Arrowso is Erieye better then Phalcon?
Not even by a long shot.
Golden_Arrowdesijatt vs. gabrujatt 😀 ROTFL
Golden_ArrowI think I’d agree. PAF is going to try and get new planes sooner or latter. The economy in Pak aint like the 1990s. With enough cash, there will be some seller sooner or later. Gloating about the “failed” Gripen attempt does no one any good.
But I think for one the exaggeration factor in Pak press is a bit high. There have been too many reports about “deal signed” when it is probably “intent.”
Golden_ArrowThis is a crappy increase dudes. The capital expenditure budget layout for 2004-05 allows for payments for existing purchases only, like the Gorshkov and Hawk AJT. I see no room for planned purchases of Mirage 2000-5, New 155 mm toed and SP Artillery for the Army and Scorpene SSKs for the Navy.
As a % of the trailing GDP, it is only about 2.5%. If you add pensions, paramiltaries etc. it comes to 3.07% of the GDP.
As a comparison, Pakistan’s current defence budget is Pak Rs. 193 billion. To that if you add paramilitaries and pensions and stuff you get Rs. 267 billion. Their GDP, according to this is Pak Rs 5,088 billion. The ratio comes to 267*100/5088 = 5.25% as per official Pakistani numbers.
Of course China does not provide its numbers, so we don’t know what her Defence budgets are as a propostion of the GDP or in real terms. Some estimates have China at over 6% of the GDP on defence.
India should be spending a lot more on capital acquisitions. Atleast double the current numbers for Capex are needed.
Golden_ArrowTo use the SD-10 you would have to use a Chinese radar. I’m not sure if China will sell one without the other, or give SD-10 launch codes to a Western firm like FIAR. At least not yet anyway.
Since PAF has indicated it will go for a Western radar, does that mean SD-10 is out for the FC-1?
Golden_ArrowWait a minute. Exactly what Radar is that report talking about?
Golden_ArrowI thought FC-1 is going to be armed with the SD-10. This is like taking wheels from a 1970 Buick Century and putting it in a 2004 model 😮
Golden_ArrowI’m not going to respond to the flamebaits that are not military aviation related. However, this one post by PLA needs rebuttal. I hope this ends the diversion.
About that blackmail thing… Well Europe massed a lot of conventional and nuclear weapons to provide a wall against WarsawPact… That was balckmail?
No one is blaming Pakistan for acquiring nukes. European nations, however, did not go around promising a nuclear attack everytime they felt uncomfortable about the Soviets. They did not have jihadi leaders making speeches about “raining fire” on neighbors while their governments stood silently.
If you have nukes, one must learn to be responsible. In words and in actions.
And why would a democracy that is not aggressive buy so many offensive arms? No one is talking about that.
That is dishonest. Every nation in the world seeks to modernize their army. No one can fight with bows and arrows. France, Britain etc are advancing. Who are they afraid of? They are democracies too.
China spends 5-10 times more in military terms than India. Just as Pakistan seeks to deter India, India seeks to deter China. That doesn’t mean that Indians think that China is aiming to attack them. In fact, Chinese military modernization seeks to balance out Japan, Korea and even the US and nmay not be aimed at India. No nation exists in isolation. Democracy, Monarchy – it doesn’t matter. Armies have to modernize constantly.
They are just intrested why Pakistan is trying to defend against the Indian arms addiction.
No one is blaming Pakistan if it goes out to the market and buys weapons. What is wrong is the nuclear blackmail – “Give us F-16s, AWACS etc. or we will use nukes.” You don’t see India begging the US or Russia to give freebies or “it will nuke China” do you?
If Pakistan was intrested in offensive war then there would be no more Indian cities…
See, this is the kind of loose talk that I was talking about. Soviets and NATO did not talk of bombing cities with nukes.
The bottom line – If Pakistan uses its money and goes out and buys weapons, then fine. Threatening to use nukes every time India makes a major purchase makes antion look downright irrational and irresponsible.
BTW, if Pakistan has a nuclear deterrent, and its army is aimed solely at defending an Indian attack, then why do you worry about conventional “imbalance” when nukes are good enough to deter India?
Golden_ArrowAnd what makes you think Pakistan will strike India first? I prefer to give Pakistan the benefit of the doubt. Surely Pakistans leaders know what the consequeces of a first nuclear strike would be? The international community would come down on Pakistan like a ton of bricks and that includes her old ally China. The Pakistani leadership would have to be positively insane to start a war of agression against India using nuclear weapons.
This post shows that you have zero knowledge of the region yet you have chosen to pontificate. From 1984 to the 2002 crisis, Pakistan has explicitly threatened a first nuclear strike more than a few dozen times. I suggest you go and read up first.
Also read up on Pakistan’s strategic weapons posture as stated by the person heading up its Strategic command, Lt.Gen. Kidwai.
I assume you are referring to Kashmir? That province has a Moslem majority, that fact is hard to deny. What should really happen here is a UN sposored plebicide guaranteed by the USA Russia and China that decides who gets the province and let that be the end of it. From my point of view the will of the people of Kashmir overrides any political ambitions of either side.
Who are you to talk about what should happen in Kashmir? USA, Russia and China? Give me a break. I have a better deal. Let myself, Groo and Vikasrehman guarantee an auction of your house. How’s that? :rolleyes:
Do you even know that China occupies about 35% of Kashmir. What kind of idiotic idea would it be to make a party to the dispute as a judge? :rolleyes:
Yes like China shores up Pakistan to help protect its India front. There is another side to that coin.
:rolleyes:
I did not say that Pakistan and India should be made equal in capability, I simply suggested that Pakistan be allowed to arm her self to the point that any hypothetical Indian attack would become too costly to contemplate.
We already have that. It is called nuclear weapons. BTW, after the 1998 nuke tests it was Pakistan which attacked India at Kargil and facing defeat threatened to use nukes, as attested by Former US President Clinton.
I am not in favor of anybody going overboard on arms sales to this region. I simply think it is a mistake not to counteract Russian and Israeli enthusiasm for selling advanced weapons to India by allowing Pakistan to keep up. Given the past conflicts between the two countries and the scale of Indias military buildup I find it hard to blame Pakistan for feeling threatened by a widening capability gap.
Nonsense. Pakistan is not threatened. What Pakistan wants is enough conventional weapons, preferably free of charge, for it to keep carrying on mischief with India. No nation has a right to demand weapons. You talk as though India and Pakistan are some babies and God appointed you to “sort them out.”
Golden_ArrowGroo,
No need of gloating here, honestly.
Gripen was a long shot given Sweden’s pacifist tendencies and the ultra-liberal govt.
If I were Musharraf, getting Erieye would be a great win for me given the current situation world wide. It is all about getting the platform. Who knows, an Erieye today and 1-2 years of calm in South Asia and Gripen might not sound far-fetched.
If I was in IAF planning, I’ll be prepared for PAF getting some sort of modern fighter sooner or later. You cannot expect Pakistan to keep quiet when India is modernizing rapidly.
Golden_ArrowNo Gripens for pakistan… not that PAF had made any request for them in the first place. Swedish FM made it rather clear by saying that “There is no question of selling them (pakistan) weapons or anything directly related to weapons today,” she said, adding that the government had yet to decide whether the Erieye radar system would be considered a weapon. “We have yet to reach that stage” in the negotiations
It seems to me that PAF is way more interested in aquiring Erieye from sweden than Gripen. So the question is whether Erieye would b considered as a weapon or more precisely offensive weapon???
Seems like it is up in the air. The FM also ruled out selling anything “related to weapons,” so is Erieye related to weapons? To me it is. But international diplomacy seeks to find gaps in meanings to make deals.
Golden_ArrowSR,
Nations make choices and have to live by them. India has a national, stated commitment to non first use of nukes. Under no circumstances will India EVER be the first to use nukes. India is also a status quo nation. Virtually all Indians have abandoned hope of getting any territory from Pakistan. So the only chance for a nuclear war is if Pakistan uses nukes.
Pakistan seeks to arm itself hoping that it can use nuclear weapons as a blackmail to force India to concede territory. That is dangerous.
There is no equivalnce here.
BTW, you never came close to addressing the reality that India needs to protect the China front.
Old theories of India-Pakistan equivalence are dead. Otherwise America would hvave sold Pakistan everything plus the Kitchen sink. Thank Goodness for that.
If you are concerned about avoiding a nuclear war, you should be concerned about war period. And the best way for that is if Pakistan forgets winning territory from India and end the proxy war.
Golden_ArrowFrom two Pakistani papers. Same quote from the Swedish Foreign Minister.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_7-7-2004_pg7_35
http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/jul2004-daily/07-07-2004/main/main12.htm
During their talk on Tuesday, Musharraf and Freivalds also discussed increasing trade between their two countries.
However, Freivalds insisted that Sweden would not consider selling weapons to Pakistan. “There is no question of selling them weapons or anything directly related to weapons today,” she said, adding that the government had yet to decide whether the Erieye radar system would be considered a weapon. “We have yet to reach that stage” in the negotiations, she said.
Golden_ArrowThat is suuuch and uncivilized way of putting it. I prefer to call it gaining political leverage through the intensive study of physics …. 😀
You might also make the argument that excessive isolation of Pakistan drove them into a corner. The USA has many strenghts but skillful diplomacy with long term aims is not one of them. Even Henry Kissinger admitted as much…. The simple fact is that we are better off shoring the Pakistanis up by selling them just enough advanced fighters to counter Indias Su-30 threat, AEW&C aircraft to counter Indias Phalcon AWACS etc. than we are ensuring that the capability gap between India and Pakistan deepens and Pakistan is pushed even further into China’s arms.
Cheers
SR
That is so yesterday.
Of late think-tanks in the US are veering to the point that India and Pakistan can never be at the same level because India needs to protect itself against China as well, even if relations betwen India and China don’t have a hot conflict at any given time. Threat perceptions drive arms acquisition.
Besides, arming Pakistan is a sure fire way of starting a war in the region because Pakistan’s Generals hve shown a streak of irrationality when getting a sense that the arms pipleline has opened.
Leaving the region to the market forces is the best bet for peace. If Pakistan wants arms, it will focus on economy instead of nuclear blackmail.
BTW, who is “we”?
Golden_ArrowThe swedish governments understands the fact that they never can win from India and relying on nukes isn’t healthy for the rest of the world…
In other words – Nuclear blackmail 😉
If Americans don’t buy it, don’t expect the Swedes to.
The other argument is that nations that easily sell their nukes to dubious states cannot be trusted with hi-tech.
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