ArrowsThe Sniper may be the best pod in the business but it does not outclass the Litening III by a generation, infact the size of their sensors etc. are same.
Again give me some proof that the Top Owl is nowhere near the capability of JHMCS, Both systems are fairly equal.
The AMRAAM has to be guided and for that the F 16 hast to turn its radar on and that gives away its position. The Mirage can use the MICA IR to have a passive shot once the position of the F 16 is revealed by an AWACS.
Firstly, IAF does not have the Litening III, only the Litening. So my argument stands. Its a generation behind Sniper.
Top Owl is essnentially a helicopter helmet, let me know when you can cue AIM-9Xs on it….
ArrowsTactics matter as well. A Mirage 2000 cued by AWACS could conceivably launch a Mica-IR on a purely passive intercept, with the targeted aircraft absolutely unaware that it has a missile heading its way, till MAWS kicks in & by which time it may already be too late. Litening 3 may also be the equal of Sniper, with a few pros and cons for each system here and there.
http://defense-update.com/news/litening-sales.htm
like wise a AMRAAM equipped F-16 cued by a Erieye will be able to attack most enemy fighters before they can even get within range. It works both ways.
ArrowsKeep your snide remarks to yourself. I’ve notified the moderator that now that you’re here on this thread, there will be flame bait posting. Its remarkable how your absence for a while kept this thread (as well as the PAF one) very civil.
Anyway, the Mirage-2000s are known to have 6000 hours or more as their fatigue life. Considering an average usage of around 1500 hours per decade for most of the fleet (150 hours per year which is standard), and the fact that the first Mirages were inducted in the mid-1980s, (the average fleet age is around 25 years) would’ve used up approx. 3750 to 4000 hours of their airframe life. That leaves around 2000 to 2200 hours on an average on the Mirages.
And their primary role being Air-Defence till most of the 1990s (they later were tasked to became more multi-role), they’ve not taken as much of a beating as some European F-16s that were tasked mainly in ground strike roles took which led to mid-life updates that required spar and other primary structure replacements.
And the IAF is not some amateur service to not know whether its fighter required life-extension or not. They’ve had NAL do indepth studies on the MiG-21Bis and the MiG-29 to find out whether their life extension was possible or not. The Mirages are well under their TTL and hence the IAF hasn’t asked for service life extension.
Regarding the MICA, the fact is that this deal INCLUDES MBDA and SIPRI has mentioned that a sale of 600 MICA missiles was going to go through for the IAF’s Mirage-2000-5s in 2009. It also said that the deal for the upgrade was to cost 1 billion Euros and obviously the rest would be for weapons to make up the $2.1 billion figure being touted now.
the Mirage upgrade includes Thales HMDS (most likely Top-OwlF) as seen on the IN’s MiG-29K. On par with the JHMCS. The Mirages already are integrated with Litening LDP and that is not going to change. They will continue to carry the IAF’s Crystal Maze bombs and Griffin as well as Paveway LGBs. RDY-2 or RDY-3 radar on par with the APG-68(V)9 and ICMS Mk2 countermeasures suite added as well as a new Electronic Warfare suite. Plus MICA-IR/EM missiles.
I stand by my words. I feel you are disguising your own thoughts/wishful thinking as facts, simply in order to help your arguement, which goes along the lines that anything India has is simply better.
Lets take it apart one by one shall we?
1) Mirage 2000 airframe hours.
These planes have been flying since the mid 80s. If they have only been flying 1’500 hours per decade that means one of 3 things. IAF Mirage 2000 pilots (assuming 2 per plane) fly only 75 hours on average a year, IAF only has one pilot assigned per plane, or you are wrong. Your call….
2) SIPRI mention a lot of inaccurate facts. No sale of MICA has gone through, in fact without an upgrade it would be pointless. No specific number is mentioned. It cannot be, the deal is not even signed yet. Please do not let wishful thinking hide as facts
3) Very simple, there is not other equievelant of the JDAM by teh French. The Sniper outclasses the Litening by at least a generation, the Top Owl is no wear near the capability of the JHMCS and lastly the AMRAAM has almost twice the range of the MICA.
ArrowsNew MiG-29Ks alone cost $42 million and have around 4000 flight hours on their airframe. The Mirages still have around 2000+ hours left on their airframe fatigue life without even going in for a major life extension upgrade.
It has been repeated again and again and once again I’ll repeat it. The deal INCLUDES sale of air-to-air MICA missiles for the entire 50+ Mirage-2000 fleet. At a reported price of almost $1 million each, the MICA EM/IR is not a cheap weapon for sure, but it has a great reputation, earned over time. Even assuming that they’re just buying 200 of these missiles for the entire fleet, that would be around $250 million for the MICA missiles and training rounds alone.
Without that sale, the IAF Mirages would’ve basically had no air to air weapons left anyway since the BVR semi-active Matra R-530D is almost shelf-life expired and the same is true of the Magic II WVR missiles that are the main CCM missiles of the Mirage-2000H/TH. They would’ve had to go buy an Israeli Python 5/Derby mix or European ASRAAM/MICA-EM mix and either of the two options would’ve cost money for integration and eventual certification flights and test firing. And if the radar was not upgraded, then there was no chance of any BVR weapon at all, since the RDM and RDI radars on the Mirage-2000H/THs are of old vintage and can hardly guide modern BVR weapons.
Besides, with this upgrade the IAF is getting 3 squadrons worth of fighters that will be on par with the F-16 Block 50+ of the PAF, their most potent fighter. With existing infrastructure for 150 Mirages at Gwalior, why on earth would the IAF let this fighter just become obsolete and then irrelevant?
BTW, the Mirages are the current platform of choice to deliver the IAF’s nuclear weapons. With the RDY-3’s terrain avoidance and contour mapping features for blind penetration, it will allow very low level ingress into enemy territory. A nuclear weapon carrying fighter has to remain undetected if it has to have any chance of success in its mission without committing suicide.
Do you make this stuff up?
Any source for the airframe having 2000 hours left?
The number of MICAs (if any) being sold?
Also interested to find out how a Mirage upgrade would make it on par with a
JHMCS/SNIPER POD/JDAM/AMRAAM equipped Block 50 F-16……
ArrowsI thought this was a done deal as claimed by many posters.
Also, is it worth an upgrade on 20 year old airframes if this upgrade does not involve some element of airframe stregthening?
ArrowsArticles dated Sep 12th dude
ArrowsYes it is. Although much of the sting is offset by US Aid and Chinese loans.
ArrowsGiven you can get J-10s for the same role a lot cheaper it seems a little redundant, don’t you think?
Not at all.
PAF is adopting a two tier “sanctions proof” approach.
For every major Western system being inducted there will be a Chinese back-up
Erieye = KJ-200
F-16 = J-10
TPS-77 = YLC-6
SPADA 2000 = Undisclosed Chinese SAM
ArrowsSo exactly how many F-16s does the PAF have right now and how many more are being ordered?
46 A/Bs being MLUd in Turkey
18 C/Ds (8 delivered 10 more coming this year)
Possible 18 more C/Ds on order if reports are correct
Surplus A/Bs “being negotiated”
ArrowsDoes anyone know how this affect people flying from UK to Aus?
ArrowsPAF Mirages at Falcon Air Meet 2010.
Interesting to note PAF is sending squadrons for air exercises from all units and aircraft types, I think this is ensuing that as much of the force as possible is exposed, not just F-16 units.
We had F-7s go to UAE for t Desert Falcon exercises last year
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…82eca19f431d05
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…ef0a045523769b
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…65ccb72d7d30f4
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…ad68322e52eeae
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…b7466aaffc9bd4
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…203a44824e8681
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…8287b797166e8a
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…2ce43ccbd216d1
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…463ffd683c5321
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…019f8090275318
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…ab57019f86f04a
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…775348440bf4dd
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…04012cb4f8c863
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…6d9161075c0541
http://www.defenseimagery.mil/imager…9fb3898b8fd71e
Arrowsmy understanding is pakistan (mostly) does not pay for weapons transfers from US and therefore the ones you listed does not fall under the category of ‘purchase’.
purchase refers to arms transfers from other countries and till now you or anyone else haven’t provided information on any such deal.
Sorry, you remain typically unclear. What information is it you want to be furnished with that you could not possibly get from Google?
ArrowsCool, so we just ignore the mods warning about keeping Jingoism out of it do we!?
:confused:
ArrowsWhile I agree with ACM PV Naik that the IAF is now looking for 4th gen fighters, and should concentrate on acquiring those quickly, I actually believe that if the sale price is low, then those Harrier GR.9s are not a bad option and 3 squadrons plus the OCU aircraft could be bought to be based solely in the North East or the Andaman and Nicobar islands-basically for their ability to operate from austere forward bases. They have some solid ground strike capabilities built up over time and have been serving usefully in CAS roles in Afghanistan.
the RAF and RN shared the crews for 4 operational squadrons and 1 OCU, so that is a large number of serviceable aircraft that will be retired soon and hence available for use quite soon as well. And apart from the USMC and the IN, there are few services who use Harriers today (Thailand, Spain with the Matador?) and that means the price will be quite low since very few real options for sale exist.
There is the Harrier GR.9A with an improved Pegasus 105 engine that improves hot and high performance, something that will be very useful for operations in tropical climes. With the ability to carry upto 6 Paveway IV bombs at once, AGM-65 Maverick missiles or Brimstone A2G missiles, it could provide useful interim support. Buy limited stocks of these weapons from the US or UK and operate these fighters till the IAF builds up to the numbers it wants. After that, they can be retired.
I think that sort of ad hoc way to purchases leads to too many aircraft types and lack of long term planning. Resulting in the problem the IAF have today.
Many fighter types and and lots of aircraft coming to the end of their lives without immediate replacement.
The Harrier does not actually give the IAF anything new that it cannot already do, bar perhaps a STOVL capability which it does not require anyway
Arrowsbecause we haven’t yet heard of any specific deals about pakistan buying arms ?
This is true.
However, you may have noticed Pakistan tends to keep its deals, tenders, competitions under wraps. Unlike other countries, you will not read many articles, blogs, opinion pieces and speculation when it comes to Pakistani weapons purchases (baring home grown weapons and joint ventures)
To give you recent examples, no on on this forum (or other forums) knew of a possible Pakistani purchase of 30 extra Bell 412EPs until it was announced by the DSCA. Like wise the induction of 115 M109 Howitzers recently.
The simple answer is, and especially when it comes to US Weaponry, we dont know, but rest assured, I imagine quite a few “discussions” went on when the Pakistani Army, Navy and Air Force delegations visited the US…..
Sign In
