Greenday1Phalanx is not capable of stopping a brahmos. Chinese SAM’s , the lesser said the better.It is a piece of joke. The LY-60 has a range of 18 km and is hardly a threat to anyone. The israelis did not have the sam system switched on. Barak has cleared all test with IN and its big brother barak-2 is on the way.
Its nice to know that you can all write off the premier CWIS system in use with the USN. I believe Phalanax is capable against all “known” threats. I would place a much greater amount of faith in US tech then I would over Russian/Indian tech ANY day of the week.
Greenday1The PNs air defence assets include the latest block of Phalanax. Chinese surface ti air missiles. Itssafe to assume they have not been neglecting ECM either. Brahmos on SU-30 wont be in service for a few years yet.
The less said about Baraks performance the better. If it WAS switched in by the Israeli ship, then thats really bad news for any Barak user.
No ones discarding teh Dorniers by any means, but I dont think they will realistically be thrown into the mix if IN is fighting PN in Pakistani waters. Maybe I am wrong?
With regard to PN ECM
Exocet, torpedo tubes and Lynx helicopter facilities were all added in RN service, but torpedo tubes were subsequently removed in all but Badr and Shahjahan and all are to be retrofitted by Pakistan using Swedish equipment. Exocet was not transferred and the obsolete Seacat SAM system is being replaced by Chinese LY 60N which is a copy of Aspide. New EW equipment has been installed. ATAS sonar has been acquired (two sets only) but plans to update the hull sonars have been shelved. Other equipment upgrades are projected and include Harpoon (from the Gearings), a DA08 search radar, an optronic director, new 30 mm and 20 mm guns, SRBOC chaff launchers. An improved combat data system with a datalink to shore HQ is also being fitted. The first fully equipped ship is not expected to complete until late 1998, but some of the modifications are being done during routine maintenance periods.
Greenday1Oh, my mistake, I thought we were comparing the ASW and ASUW capabilities of the IN and PN. So, I agree, let’s take out one of the biggest advantages the IN enjoys over the PN (the ASW/ASUW/AEW helos) out of the equation to make it a fair fight.
The advantge is not a huge one. PN also has Sea King and the Sea Lynx as well as Chinese Z-9C Helcopter on order.
But in terms if helicopter assetts yes, IN outnumbers PN by a significant margin, as well as in ships.
My point is that in several key areas, Pakistan is technologically ahead or on par with the Indian Navy. This has happend in the past 5 years. I am sure we all agree, 10-15 years ago, PN has changed out of all recognition.
Its safe to assume that in any Air-Sea war, it will be IN attempting a blockade or assault on Pakistan’s shores. UNLESS air superiority is established, there is no way India can now defeat the PN.
Not when you take P-3Cs, Agostas and potentially Marlins into consideration. This is why the carrier and IAF SU-30s will be vital now in any Air-Sea war, they will have to come into range of PAF Fighters.
Ww wil also have Exocet armed Mirages to supplemt any anti-ship actvity.
Whoever wins the air war over the sea,will also win the sea war.
Thanks to JF-17, F-16s and J-10s, IAF air dominance over the Pakistan sea board will not be guarenteed.
Greenday1I don’t mean to offend but you do know that a helicopter is also an aircraft right? And the ones I mentioned also perform maritime patrol. Shocking, I know. 😮
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Its fair to say we mean long range fixed wing aircraft when talking about MPAs. Thats the definition most people use.
IN helicopters wont be operating Maritime Patrol on their own from shore bases. They will be attached to ships. Ships that will targeted by MPAs.
Greenday1Range is not that important for PN, P-3Cs are good enough range wise. Remember, it will be IN coming into our backyeard, not vice versa.
70 Air-launched Harpoon IIs,
190 Harpoon IIs of all versions.
One batch of missiles ordered in June last year, another batch in may this year.
Technologically, I would class Harpoon II as being as good as anything out there in terms of anti-ship missiles.
Greenday1Nine Ka-31s, around fifteen Seaking Mk.42A/B, and about thirteen Ka-28s.
That’s a pretty significant force in and of itself. Plus take into account that all these can be and are organically deployed aboard SAGs and they can provide a very practical surface and subsurface picture around the SAG. Maybe the IN can’t sanitize the entire IOR of PN subs but they certainly have the assets to take care the battlespace that it chooses.
I dont wont to offend you with this question, but I am suuming you know the difference between an MARITIME PATROL AIRCRAFT and a helicopter right? Thats what we are discussing here.
Greenday1Sea Eagle has been out of service with the RAF now for many years, in fact I dont think there has been a new version since the early 90s.
Not good when next door will be deploying the latest versions of Harpoon 2 and Exocet.
Despite your “chat” with the Jaguar pilot, the UK MOD preferred using the Harpoon for its greater weighta nd range in replace of Sea Eagle. Please lets not fudge the issue. IN are not using Sea Eagle becuase its the best out there. Its old and needs replacing. Very doubtful if it could stand up to modern ECM/Phalanax combo.
The Dorniers wont be attacking Pakistans coast with such short range, its about 1,200 miles right?
Greenday1I believe 2 IL-38s collided with each other? Have these been replaced yet?
Also, are the TU-142s actually servicable!?
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2003/09/10/stories/2003091015051200.htm
“During two days of presentations, U.S. officials will acquaint their Indian counterparts with proposals to refurbish the airframe and discuss equipment fitment options and product support terms. India will then weigh the total price package for Orions with the cost of upgrading the eight TUs and three surviving IL-38s after two collided during an air show last year.
A couple of aircraft from the existing fleet has been despatched to Russia for upgrading but the Indian navy is despairing of them and wants replacements. The endurance of American and Russian maritime surveillance aircraft is generally comparable but most of the TU-142M equipment is obsolete in today’s environment. Besides, their maintenance had become difficult because of spares procurement difficulties after the break-up of the Soviet Union, sources said. “
How can you compare these to P-3Cs being inducted with the latest tech?
Greenday1According to this report, the TU-142s have not been upgraded and an upgrade is still being “considered”. So essentially we are atlking about aircraft with 1980s tech still in them.
Greenday1Couple of things
It will take a good 10-12 years to induct all the Scorpenes. Its entirely concivable, (if Pakistan signs a contract this year as PN Nava chief stated) then its very lilkly PN and IN fleets will be inducted at the same time.
Additional PN P-3Cs are not being inducted “within the next decade”, but two are arriving this year with the rest by the end of 2007.
Like it or not, 10 P-3Cs with the latest ASW suite will erode any IN MPA adavntage. What radar PN will get with the P-3Cs is undiclosed I beilive. Obviously it will not be Israeli.
To state “IN MPA force is way ahead” is certianly not true.
Firstly I belive the force consists of 5 IL-38s and 8 TU-142s.
Compared to 4 P-3Cs, 4 Atlantiques and 4 F-27s?
With an additional 6 P-3Cs to be delivered.
The Atlantiques and F-27s have gone through various upgrades too.
How is the IN MPA force “far ahead”!?
I dont think the TU-142s can even carry anti-ship missiles? Can they? If so what type? The Sea Eagle is now quite old I think.
Comparing the PN V IN to USN V Cuban Navy would be be inappropraite, as I believe, unlike the PN, the Cuban Navy has never destroyed a USN ship!
Greenday1The scorpene is superior to agosta 90b in sensor suite and technology. I have never claimed agosta 90b is inferior to kilos. If you go back and read I said that 3 subs is not a good enough deterrant since IN will not engage in 1 on 1 sub battle.
The latest P-3c or refurbished once? I was under the impression these are just upgraded ones not brand new. They are similar to the Il-38 with sea dragon. PN MPA have no protection and would be taken out in the first wave. Its much more difficult to take out a sub that a lumbering P-3c. Atlantique anyone?
You said Kilos would take out the entire PN!? Your memory that short?
Yes, Scorpenes are very advanced, but dont forget, PN Chief has just said we will be signing for 6 new subs very soon, these could be the brand new Marlin or a new German design. When this happens IN may actually have to rethink the Scorpene purchase, or theymay be in a situation, where there new subs will be outlcassed by PN Marlins or PN 214s months after they enter service!
Spending almost $900 Million on 8 P-3Cs means they will probably have some very good kit in them. Exactly what this is we can only speculate, but lets not forget it was only very recently IN itself tried to get hold of some P-3Cs but refused due to cost.
In any Naval conflict it will be the Indian Navy trying to assert itself in Pakistani waters, not Pakistan trying to block Bombay or Calcutta.
As a result our sub and MPA will be operating near fighter cover from Gwadar and Karachi. In will have to hunt our subs using its own Ship and Submarines in Pakistani waters, This will make their job very hard as they will have to protec their ships using their aircraft carrier and their own subs. This will be very difficult is Pakistani P-3Cs and Agostas will be operating under our own fighter cover
Greenday1Sorry, but no they are not.
You cant just “upgrade” a sub like you can an airplane. Its still has an ancient hull, its still has a loud engine. The Kilos sensors are in no way comparable to the Agosta 90B.
Its the very reason India is going for the Scorpenes made by DCN and similar to Agosto 90B.
I am not discounting the Kilos, but to compare them to the new Agostas with MESMA is a joke, and a bad one for IN submariners/
PN is getting the LATEST version of the P-3C. In fact its spending $900 Million just on upgrading 8 airframes to the lates standard. They will be armed with Harpoon 2.
Again, the comparison to the IL-38, (whose servicability is doubtful) is a joke.
India Navy has superiority over PN in surface vessals and its fighters, as well as extensive ASW choppers, but certianly not in Sub and MPA technology.
As for subs not being able to take on Ships, you need to do some more homework on that!
Greenday1LOL yes, try the chinese subs for the loudest one contest….
The 3 agostas are minimal threat and IN can swat them like flies. Period.If sub hunting was as easy as you claim. there would be no subs in any navy.
No one on this thread claimed sub hunting was easy, …er…aprt from you!
Are 20 year old Kilos or 30 year old IL-38s really going to be “swatted down like flies”!?
PNs sub fleet is perhaps the single most biggest threat to the IN
Greenday1PN Agosta 90B
MESMA
PROPULSION SYSTEMS
The Agosta 90B class submarines can be equipped with a diesel-electric propulsion system or the MESMA air-independent propulsion system. The diesel-electric system consists of two SEMT-Pielstick 16 PA4 V 185 VG diesels providing 3,600hp and a 2200kW electric motor driving a single propeller..
A diesel-electrical submarine has to surface to periscope depth to recharge the batteries using the diesel engine, leading to increased risk of detection. The MESMA air-independent propulsion system, being fitted to the Agosta 90B submarines for Pakistan, allows the submarine to remain submerged three times longer. The MESMA system consists essentially of a turbine receiving high-pressure steam from a combustion chamber, burning a gaseous mixture of ethanol and liquid oxygen. The Agosta 90B’s performance remains the same in all other respects, except that the length increases from 67m to 76m and submerged displacement from 1,760t to 2,050t.
SUBTICS COMMAND AND CONTROL SYSTEM
The Agosta 90B submarines are equipped with a SUBTICS fully integrated combat system. This is supplied by UDS International, a joint subsidiary of DCN International and Thales (formerly Thomson-CSF). SUBTICS processes signals from the submarine’s sensors, determines the tactical situation by track association, fusion, synthesis, trajectory plotting and management and handles all weapon command and control functions.
DISPLACEMENT, tons : 1,570 surfaced; 1,760 dived (1,960 with MESMA)
DIMENSIONS, ft (m) : 221.7 x 22.3 x 17.7 (67.6 x 6.8 x 5.4)
MAIN MACHINERY : Diesel-electric; 2 SEMT-Pielstick 16 PA4 V 185 VG diesels; 3,600 hp(m) (2.65 MW); 2 Jeumont Schneider alternators; 1.7 MW; 1 motor; 4,600 hp(m) (3.4 MW); 1 cruising motor; 32 hp(m) (23 kW); 1 shaft
SPEED, knots : 12 surfaced; 20 dived
RANGE, miles : 8,500 at 9 kt snorting; 350 at 3.5 kt dived
COMPLEMENT : 36 (7 officers)
MISSILES : SSM: Exocet SM 39 may be carried.
TORPEDOES : 4 – 21 in (533 mm) bow tubes. Up to 20 F17P Mod 2.
MINES : Stonefish.
COUNTERMEASURES : ESM: Thomson-CSF DR-3000U; intercept.
WEAPONS CONTROL : Thomson Sintra SUBICS Mk 2.
RADARS : Surface search: I-band.
SONARS : Hull-mounted bow and flank arrays. Towed array.
Greenday1Names & Pennant Numbers with commission dates:
INS Sindhugosh S55 (30 April 1986) – Refit Complete
INS Sindhudhvaj S56 (12 June 1987)
INS Sindhuraj S57 (20 October 1987) – Refit Complete
INS Sindhuvir S58 (26 August 1988) – Refit Complete
INS Sindhuratna S59 (22 December 1988) – Refit Complete
INS Sindhukesari S60 (16 February 1989) – Refit Complete
INS Sindhukirti S61 (04 January 1990) – Undergoing Refit
INS Sindhuvijay S62 (08 March 1991) – Undergoing Refit
INS Sindhurakshak S63 (24 December 1997)
INS Sindhushastra S65 (19 July 2000)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Sindhugosh.html
As I expected, most of the Kilos are almost 20 years old!!!! They are probably teh loudest ships in the water!
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