Greenday1During wartime conditions, the onus to prevent civilian casualties lie with all the warring factions. It is as much Israel’s responsibility to minimize civilian casualties as it is the Hezbollah’s. The fact that Hezbollah actively uses Lebanese civilians as shields and targets Israeli civilians actively means that they have completely reneged on its responsibilities to minimize civilian casualties. If Hezbollah has so obviously reneged on its responsibilities, what binds Israel to those same responsibilities.
I agree, but if thats the case, then actually, going by your definition, both sides a terrorists!
Both seem to be hitting Civilians, the only debate is if this killing is intentional or not, as far as I am concerned, hope both wipe each other away. Someone should however protect Lebanese Civilians
Greenday1There is much talk of a sea-launched Barbur Cruise Missile system entering Pak Navy too! That is why we may need something a bit larger then frigates
Greenday1It does not matter whether Hizbollah fires from urban positions.
The mere presence of Hizbollah there makes a legitimate target.
In a war you don’t only go after the assets that shoot at you just right now, you want to kill and destroy ALL the enemies assets WHENEVER and WHEREVER you find them.“Justification” is not a word one should use in conjunction with “war”, anyway, Hizbollah has the same “right” to target Israeli urban areas as IDF has to target such in southern Lebanon. Just that Hizbollah doesn’t have the assets to do real damage.
And the question if Lebanon shouldn’t be a target at all since Hizbollah is a non-state operator: (i) Since Hizbollah is part of the Lebanese “parliament” it is part of the official political spectrum of Lebanon and so part of the official state of Lebanon. That they fire rockets into Israel means that either Lebanon attacks Israel (for years) or there is a civil war in Lebanon with one of the fractions waging war against another state. (ii) If Hizbollah on the other hand is a pure non-state operator Geneva Convention and the conventions of Hague about land warfare do not apply (also because Hizbollah fighters are not always marked as combatants) than they are nothing more than bandidos with everything that implies.
Personally I think (i) is the right answer and ALL of Lebanon is a legit target. And nobody can say I’m pro Israel – usually.
If you go by yoru logic, all of Isreal is a justifiable target, as every Isreali citizen is a reservist soldier.
Greenday1Armed forces fully capable of defending the country: Air Chief
Updated at 1555 PST
LAHORE: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Chief, Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad has said that the armed forces of Pakistan have all the capacity to defend the country and Pakistan’s prime minister would not have to wail helplessly in any gathering like that of the Lebanese PM.
Following a meeting with the Punjab Governor, Lt. Gen. ® Khalid Maqbool here in the Governor House, he told this to newsmen.
PAF chief told that he was grieved of the attacks on Lebanon. He said that the weakness turns out into inability, but ‘Al Hamdolillah’ Pakistan was not weak.
Quizzed on acquiring F-16 from the US, Air Chief Tanvir Mahmood Ahmad told that the US Congress has given the final approval to the delivery of 44 F-16 to Pakistan. He said that these included 18 new and 26 those previous aircrafts made for Pakistan in 1990 and were being delivered now equipped with high-tech long- range weapons almost free of cost.
He told that we were also upgrading our existing 34 old F-16 and after acquiring the fresh lot from the US soon, Pakistan’s fleet of F-16 would make a total of 78.
He said that the PAF in next seven years would get so much stronger that none could even conceive of committing aggression against Pakistan.
Greenday1But how will they go maintaining and operating S-300 system?
How often will they get to test them?
Will they be willing to expose them to effective SEAD?‘You can buy all the best toys you want if you have the cash’!
‘But operating it effectively is another thing’!Most of the Arab countries have been doing this for decades know, but history has shown that they are unable to effectively operate them, without continued foreign (Soviet/East German at the time) assistance.
Regards
Pioneer
They have been operating F-16s since the early 80s, when the F-16A/B was considered quite an advanced aircraft, so you can give them some credit.
Greenday1US granted USS Fletcher free to Pak Navy, anyone know if we ever took this up or not?
Greenday1At least your lot play Cricket and have the right rank structure in your AF.
Unfortunately we are not doing to well!
Cricket team getting a good pasting by England, and PAF have just changed all epulettes and ranks to American “star” system! :rolleyes:
Greenday1I don’t think there is any western equipment to be fitted on it i have read that PN was intrested in them but china insisted on chinese made weaponary and tied its incentive package to it. Which i believe was one of the reasons why it took a while to sign the agreement.
Interesting. There are a number of DSCA reports of Pakistan obtaining extra Ship launched Harpoons and extra sets of Phalanax CWIS.
Considering the fact taht most of our present frigates have this capability I thought these orders would be for our new ships.
Greenday1I presume the outfitting of any western systems especially American will be done in Pakistan.
No idea, but in the case of the Type 21s, when we refitted these with Euro/Western/Chinese equipment, this work was done in Pakistan, besides, not many people maybe too over the moon about PN handing over Phalanx and Harpoon II over to anyone. So I assume it will be down in Pak.
Greenday1Deal signed and done, but dont expect any news too soon. First one is being worked on in China and will be delivered in a year or two. 2 more will follow, with 4th being built in Karachi.
Weapons and electronics on these will be a mix of US/Euro and Chinese equipment. So they will eb fascinating little boats!
Pakistan, China to start production of F-22P frigates this year
BEIJING (updated on: May 22, 2006, 18:05 PST): Expressing complete satisfaction over Pakistan’s frigates’ deal with China, Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir said, it also envisaged transfer of technology for indigenous production of modern surface fleet to meet new challenges in the defence sector.
The deal has been finalised and the keel for construction of the F-22P frigates will be laid at the Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai this year. The first frigate will be delivered to Pakistan in 2008 and the other three by 2013 along with transfer of technology.
The naval chief who concluded his seven-day official visit to China on Monday told APP in an interview that the fourth frigate will be constructed in Pakistan at Karachi Shipyard. The contract includes upgrading of Karachi Shipyard, training and technical assistance by the Chinese side during construction of fourth F-22P frigate.
The frigates will be equipped with organic helicopters specially designed for surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles along with numerous associated self-defence systems. ” Modalities of its design and configuration are at the final stages,” he added.
” Signing of worth about $600 dollar frigates’ contract is yet another milestone in ever-increasing bilateral relations between the two countries in maritime sector,” the Chief of Naval staff said adding, this is for the first time that the two navies reached a high-level collaboration to augment surface fleet. The project, he said also reflects the keen interest of their senior political leadership further deepening the defence ties.
To a question, he said China made marvellous progress in the defence production sector in the recent years and the quality of their products are meeting the international standard.
About the visit, Admiral Afzal Tahir said during his stay in Beijing, he had very productive meetings with Chinese Defence Minister Cao Gangchuan, Vice Minister, Commission of Science, Technology and Industry for National Defence (COSTIND) Jin Zhuang Long and Admiral Hu Yanlin. He had also an opportunity to visit Hudong-Zhonghua Shipyard in Shanghai and naval installations in Qingdao.
Chinese Defence Minister Cao Gangchuan assured him that the Chinese armed forces are ready to further strengthen co-operation with Pakistan. Cao noted that the friendship between the two governments, the two peoples and the two armed forces have developed steadily despite the great changes in the international situation.
China, he added is ready to make joint efforts with Pakistan to promote bilateral co-operation in various fields and further develop ties between the two militaries in their efforts to safeguard world peace and stability and promote common development.
Admiral Tahir said the Pakistan government, people and armed forces have always cherished friendship with the Chinese government, people and armed forces. China is Pakistan’s long-time ally and main supplier of military equipments. Their defence co-operation has always been a source of peace and stability in the region, he added.
Our relations with China are very deep-rooted. There is great understanding and co-operation between armed forces of the two countries. Accordingly, interaction at the level of Pakistan Navy and the naval force of the People Liberation Army has been excellent over the years. “We have very productive co-operation in training and technical matters and development of naval platform”, he added.
About the joint exercises, the naval chief said up till now, they had two exercises with the PLA’s navy, one in Chinese water near Shanghai and other in Pakistan. The scope of these exercises in the future will definitely be widened. The first exercise held on October 22, 2003 and it was the first time Chinese naval forces held a joint exercise with a foreign country.
The date of the next naval exercise has not been fixed. But, he said he was sure it will take place soon with mutual understanding.
Copyright APP (Associated Press of Pakistan), 2006
Aziz
Greenday1Description: USS Bunker Hill (CG 52) Commanding Officer, Capt. Charles M. Gaouette, talks with members of the National Pakistan Defense College.
060406-N-0640K-013 San Diego (April 6, 2006) – USS Bunker Hill (CG 52) Commanding Officer, Capt. Charles M. Gaouette, talks with members of the National Pakistan Defense College as they tour the guided-missile cruiser. The tour highlighted Bunker Hill’s mission, training, technology and capabilities. U.S. Navy photo by Journalist Seaman Jennifer S. Kimball (RELEASED)
Greenday1060515-N-9500T-029 Camp Lemonier, Djibouti (May 15, 2006) P U.S. Marine Corps Lt. Col. Paul Johnson III (left) briefs Commander, Combined Task Force One Five Zero (CTF-150) Pakistani Navy Rear Admiral Shahid Iqbal, on the capabilities of the CH-53E Sea Stallion helicopter during a recent tour of Camp Lemonier. U.S. Navy photo by Photographer’s Mate 2nd Class Scott Taylor (RELEASED)
Greenday1Description: Commanding Officer Patrol Squadron Nine (VP-9) Cmdr. James R. Wyatt greets Commander Task Force One Five Zero (CTF-150) Rear Adm. Shahid Iqbal of the Pakistan Navy.
060620-N-1027J-002 Southwest Asia (June 20, 2006) – Commanding Officer Patrol Squadron Nine (VP-9) Cmdr. James R. Wyatt greets Commander Task Force One Five Zero (CTF-150) Rear Adm. Shahid Iqbal of the Pakistan Navy. Iqbal visited with Wyatt in order to learn more about the operation and maintenance of the P-3C Orion asset. VP-9 is currently on deployment to both 5th and 7th fleet areas of operation, supporting reconnaissance and maritime patrol operations supporting the global war on terrorism. U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist Seaman John T. Jackson (RELEASED)
Greenday1Thats cause Harpoon II has longer range, bigger warhead and probably the best ECCM in the world….
Greenday1PAF Gulfstream recently inducted for Air Chiefs transport
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