Still no sources to back up a word you say?

Fine. Job done, if you cant accept facts, not my problem.

Ciao

Right. I really cant argue logically with you if you deny basic proven facts.

First you said PAF cant integrate western avionics in Chinese aircraft. I have proven this is not the case.

“Miscellaneous Systems

The F-7MG has several modern avionics upgrades. These include a Stores Management System, which is essentially a useful cockpit-pilot interface to help establish the status of stores including configuration, fusing and weapon codes etc. A voice warning system, colour video recorder, elaborate cockpit lighting and a more precise and jitter–free AOA probe are nice-to-have improvements. The colour EFIS includes two displays, one for the attitude and the other for the heading and navigation sub-systems like ADF, VOR, TACAN, ILS etc.

The PAF pilots used to advanced cockpits like the F-16 were quick to point out several ergonomic improvements and had detailed discussions with CAC design bureau. Switchology changes and relocation of several instruments led to a much improved cockpit; it has been suggested in a lighter vein that a nomenclature change to F-7PG2 might just be in order. (‘G’ incidentally stands for ‘gai’, meaning ‘improved’ in Chinese.)

Radar

The F-7MG was originally designed to have the GEC-Marconi Super Skyranger. At the time of initial PAF trials the radar was not ready. Trials were held again several months later after the prototype radar was installed. In the event the radar did not come up to PAF specifications and GEC-Marconi was not able to surmount the problems associated with the small nose cone, including antenna size and equipment air-conditioning which was insufficient.

The PAF eventually retrofitted their F-7Ps and F-7PGs with the FIAR Grifo-7. To say that miniaturisation technology is at its best in this marvellous Italian radar would be an understatement. An excellent pulse Doppler radar with respectable ranges and a medium order azimuth and elevation scan, the system is married to the all-aspect AIM-9L Sidewinder, making it a lethal combination.”

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/index.html

AVIONICS: Expected to be of domestic and/or Russian origin for Chinese squadrons and Western type for Pakistan Air Force. FIAR Grifo S7 pulse Doppler multirole radar will be most likely selected for Pakistani version. Other avionics will be Pakistani made and/or from SAGEM. A cockpit layout shown by TECNA Corporation which is working in close association with the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex to establish a full Systems integration capability at Kamra shows 3 large multi-function colour displays, an Up Front Control Panel and a smart Head-Up Display (HUD). The Pakistani version will also feature a HMS. In the second half of 2005 prototype #4 with the complete avionics package is expected to undergo extensive flight testing for qualification of the avionics arid weapons. Ultimately it is expected that the aircraft would be fully certified in the year 2006. “

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/index.html

From App.com.pk today.

Pak Air Force to receive first batch of JF-17 thunder aircraft next year

Chengdu, China, May 10 (APP): The Pakistan Air Force will receive the delivery of first batch of JF-17 thunder aircraft sometime next year, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed said.

Talking to APP here Wednesday after the success of first maiden operational test flight of PT-4 aircraft, he said the Air Force plans to induct more than 100 Fighters (JF-17) Thunders, jointly produced by China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Kamra.

Lauding the efficient performance of the prototype-4 aircraft, he said it will be equipped will ‘state-of-the-art’ avionics, radar and weapons integration systems. Small batch production of the single-seat, single-engine JF-17, will begin in China next month.

Pakistan and China had been negotiating with different companies inviting them to buy the avionics package for the JF-17 aircraft. It would be economic model. The Air Chief said there is no aircraft in the world which has such good value for money.

The exact price cannot be determined at this stage, but he said he was sure the aircraft will be almost nearly half of the price of any other fighter aircraft. And capability-wise, it would be better than some of the most modern aircraft in the world.

Answering a question, he said, ” We are confident that many Air Forces in the world will prefer to buy it, when it will go on mass production.”

About PT-4 combat aircraft, he said the project is a important milestone in development of aircraft industry in the two countries. It carried the new and modified airframe. Minor changes we might have to do after testing the aircraft, he said adding “ Now we have final shape of JF-17 (thunder) and it is hoped that this particular aircraft will get into production.”

Commenting on the depth of Sino-Pak relationship, he said it proved time-tested over the years in various sectors, including the Defence production sector. “ These relationships are based on mutual trust, faith and friendship. JF-17 programme has provided a big incentive to this relationship.

He hoped that collaboration between the two countries enjoy would give more strength to their aviation industry. “ We are discussing some other projects with our Chinese counterparts.” The success of the JF-17 thunder joint programme will usher a new era of strategic partnership between the two friendly countries in the aviation sector. He termed the success of the PT-4 maiden flight a big achievement in the aviation history in the recent years.

He noted that trial flight has laid a solid foundation of further cooperation between the two countries to meet future challenges
“

By Mayed Ali

LAHORE: Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmud Ahmed will attend the formal first operational flight ceremony of the JF-17 (Thunder) fighter aircraft, a joint venture of Pakistan and China, at Chengdu on May 10.

The air chief marshal will witness the first aircraft (prototype 4 or P4) taking off from the People’s Liberation Army Air Force airbase in Chengdu. He will be heading a 10-member delegation of the Pakistan Air Force to see the first-ever Pakistan-China joint production lifting off. With this take-off, the aircraft will enter into formal production at Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) in Sichuan. The CAC is the second largest aircraft industry in China. The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), Kamra will start the production of the aircraft in June 2007.

Pakistan is expected to get the first batch of four JF-17s Thunder (Chinese FC-1) in the first quarter of the next year (in March probably). The CAC-PAC joint venture has an accumulated cost tag of $500 million, while the aircraft will have a price tag of $15-20 million, depending on the specifications. Pakistan and China have shared the cost on the project equally.

Once developed and fully operational, the JF-17 might find potential markets in the third world countries. Egypt, Burma, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe and Nigeria are closely watching the evolution of the aircraft.

The Thunder is a handy aircraft, a perfect alternative for sophisticated platforms at an affordable price. It has a top speed of 1.6 mach at low altitudes. It has a Russian RD-93 engine. Having a good weight-power equation, this light-weight aircraft will have a great manoeuvrability. It can attain a ceiling of 16,500 metres, and has a ferry range of 3000 kilometres. The aircraft has seven standard pylons (hardpoints, including four under the wings, two on the wing-tips and one under the fuselage), enabling the platform to carry multiple weaponry for air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. It can carry a maximum weapon payload of 3,800 kilograms. This multi-role JF-17 can operate in all weathers, day and night and is fitted with two coloured multi-function displays (MFDs) and a head-up display (HUD), besides having the provision of helmet mounted display.

As for its avionics, the aircraft is fitted with Italian Grifo S-7 fir-control radar system. The PAF is already using the older versions of this system in its existing fleet of Mirage 111s, F-7Ps and F-16s. The aircraft will use the Chinese SD-10 BVR (Beyond Visual Range) medium-range missiles besides short-range air-to-air armaments. Though the exact range of the missiles has not yet been made public, it is expected the system (the radar and the integrated missile) will enhance the PAF’s existing potential from around 60 kilometres to around 100 kilometres. The aircraft will be able to carry guided bombs (including laser guided bombs) by virtue of the Infra-red Navigation System and Global Position System (INS/GPS) installed on the platform. It’s dual digitally controlled fly-by-wire (FBW) system will enhance its control and firing capability. The prototype to be flown on May 10 has been modified with work done on its air-intakes, strake and vertical fins, besides modifications in the fuselage.

ISLAMABAD – The Pakistan Air Force is expecting the delivery of its first multi-role combat aircraft modelled on China’s FC-1 Xiaolong in early 2007, a spokesman said on Monday.

The Air Force plans to induct more than 100 Joint Fighter-17 (JF-17) Thunders, jointly produced by China’s Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, to replace a fleet of ageing Mirage fighters.

“The programme is on schedule and the fourth prototype would be tested by the end of April,” Air Commodore Sarfraz Ahmed Khan said. The flight will be used to test the aircraft’s avionics and weapons integration.

Small batch production of the single-seat, single-engine JF-17, will begin in China in June and the aircraft would be delivered to Pakistan in early 2007, Khan said.

Serial production of the aircraft would start at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra by June 2007, with aim of supplying both the Pakistan Air Force and export markets.

Pakistan and China had been negotiating with different companies to buy the avionics package for the JF-17 aircraft, which at $12 million apiece is half the cost of an F-16.

BAE Systems Plc BA.L was one option being considered for sourcing the avionics, according to defence and diplomatic sources.

(Reuters) 10 April 2006

Yes, IAF will be needed to counter PAF Falcon 20s, Erieyes and P-3Cs. You have proved my point. Indian Naval aviation will be insufficient to take on PAF Southern Command.

I have given my sources. Now you can put up or shut up.

JF-17s will have inflight refueling, so range may not be an issue. Additionally most scenarios will be the IN knocking on Pakistans door, not vice versa. So The range situation is more relevent to the Harrier and MIG-29s. Not the JF-17s.

PAF has stated a “Western” avionics and weapons fit in its JF-17s. Initail prototypes may well have Chinese avioncis however.

BVR may be AMRAAM or latest blocks of the SD-10. Howver, both will comfortably outrange Derby. About their ECM I am unsure.

It all depends on US attitudes. If they will let PAF integrate AMRAAM. Then it will be relatively easy to get a high spec US or Eurpean radar and do this. After all, it was possible on the RN SHARs.

Of course we have to factor in IAF atention on Maroor and Gwadar. Thats a privilage I am sure the IAF will not deny us.

You can look up stats for the Magic 2 and AIM-9L/M. They are certainly not classidfied and I never claimed they were. The sidewinder has greater range and manourverability, and better ECCM ability. In fact I think Magic 2 production may have ended. You can count Magic 2 users on one hand. All of NATO use the AIM-9L/M

You are currently unaware of the exact weapons and avionics fit of the JF-17. I would say its very conficent of you to make a sweeping statement that the MIG-29K will better it. You simply cannot look into the future. If a decent western radar and AMRAAMs are placed in it.Then I think it will be more then enough for the Sea Harrier and the MIG-29Ks.

Just to clarify. When talking of the AIM-9L, I am also including the AIM-9-M and its latest versions also in PAF service.