chaza87Spitfires to Malta – King George V Dock
Sorry for being late but maybe the following can add to the saga.
Twelve Spitfires were off loaded from Wasp when it was discovered the drop tanks were faulty. The US Navy then repaired the faulty tanks on the Spitfires which were aboard the ship. In Operation Bowery the Spits flew off to Malta together with a batch from Eagle. Maybe Eagle’s Spitfires were those which were off loaded from Wasp.
The distance between Renfrew Airport was not all that long. But just as you come to the dock the road narrows considerably with trees and hedges on either side, also the dock gate was very narrow and that is probably why the wingtips were taken off.
One Spitfire was lost on take off from Hornet and another lost it’s tank and landed on Wasp. This machine flew off the next day with a batch of either Swordfish or Albacore. Certainly the machines were delivered to King George V Dock by Queen Mary trailer and those at James Watt dock by lighter. The distance between Glasgow and Greenock is substantial and one needs to consult a map to see the distances. There is no way any aircraft was taken through the streets of Glasgow as indicated by the good doctor.
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
The main problem with these weapons was not the publicity value but their shortage. Harris said they used the bombs, “…… in hand to mouth …” and their availability was the problem. Notwithstanding the use of Tallboy et al by the British, Disney was used operationally by the USAAF and contemporary newspapers reported these facts.
“The first use of the 12,000 lb bomb was on the night of June 8-9, 1944 against the Saumur Railway Tunnel, a vital link for German reinforcements trying to get to the Normandy invasion beaches. 19 bombs were dropped- at least one from as little as 6,000 ft- blocking the tunnel with tons of rock that required weeks to clear.
Following this initial success, the production order for Tallboy was increased to 2,000 with half to be manufactured in the United States- some by the A.O.Smith Corporation of Milwaukee. Vickers Armstrong and the English Steel Corporation made up the bulk of U.K. production.” What must be added to this is the use of the Amrican produced T1 bombsight which was an exact copy of the MKxiva bombsight by Bomber Command. All operational bombs used by the USAAF and the RAF were interchangeable though the box tail on the 1000lb bomb had to be changed to a cylindrical type of which there was a great shortage.
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
I am sorry but I have to point out the final two sentences in my previous posting.
The point I was trying to make with the evidence that I researched was that these weapons should be regarded as joint Anglo American. It was as simple as that.When the test reports were filed copies went to the British and vice versa. Its as plain as that. None went to the USSR, France etc.
Even Tarzon, in American publications, is described as having a 12000lb British Talboy body and so it goes on.
And I do know from interviewing those present, that at the test of Highball around the sea lochs in the the west of Scotland American officers were present. The two nations worked hand in glove to produce these weapons and to make them effective
On 15 June 1945 a B29 was tested at Eglin Field with a British Tallboy and Grandslam for installation trials. The aircraft was 4263577, 6 reports on these trials went to the RAF The issue I am making is that the British worked hand in hand from 1940 with the Americans to produce specialist weapons such as the spherical mine/torpedo and the deep penetration bombs etc
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
I am deeply grateful for your reply because it has given me time to sit with the drawings and compare their properties including dates. The American drawing is before the British one and is dated August 1942, I refer to 104 above which is correct. The American one is for a torpedo, “..an explosive container having an accss of symmetry etc” The design is like the Vickers design and it stipulates ” enclosed by a pair of hinged arms ….to rotate the container ….”. The drawing is identical in many ways to the British mine but very simple. And yes they are generic because they are the roots and branches of the later types which was correctly stipulated above would be different with production.
It is to be used by, “..the Government or one of its agencies..”
I am sorry but it now looks to me like the rotating mine was ever more an Anglo American project.
I hope you understand that I would be breaching copyright and confidentiality by publishing the drawings without permission. I am only laying the facts.
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
The mines are given different names in America and in the UK/Europe. You are correct that the American design is only a few days later, it also has a different name on the drawing but it is an American official agency that claimed the design. Whereas in the UK its Wallis and Vickers Amrmstrong etc, a private company who are credited with the design.
The main problem with casting these bombs was to maintain a uniform strength throughout the case. This was what Harken and Ruby set out to prove. The Americans and sometimes the British tended to forget that these weapons were not intended to direct hit but in fact to miss and cause an earthquake effect. I understand that it was this effect that capsised the Tirpitz. A direct hit was no use.
The first American welded bombs were unstable due to the lack of turning inside the case, slag was left and the bomb had a tendency to break at the welds. This was later rectified.
In Harken it was found that to stop a bomb breaking up an altitude of 35000 ft, which was the absolute height for dropping, produced the best results. but this was for the model of the 12000lb Disney bomb dropped on Farge. These were dropped from B29 4521751, The A/c was Captain Willis Boyde, the British had no aircraft at that time which could carry out the test
The American phase of Harken dropped Amazon and Samson deep penetration bombs. These were the children of Tallboy. These bombs were dropped from the same aircraft that dropped the 1650lb model Disney.The date for Harken was 29 August 1947. Amazon had a tendency to break up on the penetrating the roof, the weakness was the rear weld. Samson was akin to the Tallboy/Grandslam family in shape, but the T26E2 Samson was longer and slimmer it was about 195″ long. The release altitude for both these weapons in Harken was 17000′. The Americans then pursued the the 44000lb bomb which had been cast in 1946 to a wave of publicity then slipped into secrecy. There are pictures of a 44000lb bomb being carried by a 29 but no-one has said that it actually flew with the bomb. It is strongly possible that the take-off shots of the 29 with the 44000lb bomb show it carrying a model.
The B36 could cary at least one 44000lb bomb or two Tallboy/Samson/Amazon/Grandslam bombs
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
Generic drawings are the drawings on which the British and Americans based the Upkeep weapons. They are published officially in America, Britain and Europe and on the net.The offset American tail is there and they are covered by the Patent interchange Agreement. If you do not go to published official references which lead you on to true research then statements can be very weak. I cannot believe how many people have not read the books or searched the achive I listed and are not included in Bibliographies of popular history They do Frankland, a former Bomber Command officer et al a great disservice, these writers had free access to all the files.
Everything is there such as the reports on Harken and Ruby, its the hard slog, go and see, I have seen them. Until someone comes up with different hypothesis then I stick to what I have said
These weapons are joint Anglo American, the interst is 60/40 for each nation.
Tallboy was turned down and flew in a Vickers Valiant as a 10000lb bomb, a prototype for a British nuclear device, Air International covered the development some years back.
Again from an official publication, Kurt was developed at the German Air Force experimental center (E-Stelle) at Travemunde.It had a 30 inch sphere weighing 400-450 kg. Its range was about 400 meters. To increase its range to 4000 meters a rocket device was added but trials were stopped in August 1944. The rocket Kurt had an air tail preset at an angle of 10 degrees and to maintain stability a gyroscope was installed. The explosive in the sphere was cast and contained two fuzes which replaced the type 50 fuse. The drawings of Kurt are very pretty
chaza87Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
The production of munitions for war will be found in The United Kingdom Civil Series, The History of the Second World War, North American Supply. There you will find the Anglo American agreement on the production of munitions. A board was set up called the Combined Munitions Allocations Board who processed orders for the Allied Powers. The head of the Board was Harry Hopkins. You will also find details of the Tizard mission to America just after Dunkirk when the British handed over all the details of turret design, radar, the jet engine the proximity fuze etc. Robert Sherwood wrote a biography of Hopkins and in it he describes clearly the workings of the board.
The weakness of production of these weapons was the input from the politicians. Oliver Lyttleton Minister of Production felt the war would end at Christmas 1944, he was wrong. Orders were cut and this caused a shortage of Grand Slam, Tallboy and the 1000 pounder for Bomber Command, made up with production from America
In the Strategic Air Offensive, Noble Frankland et al you will find out about the American Grand Slam and Tallboy.
In the case of the radio – controlled bomb, Dennistoun Burney was working on a design in 1936-37, its details went to America. It was the same for the Disney bomb. The Americans liked Tyrrels design and asked for it, though they were produced in Glasgow by Beardmore the funding was Lease – Lend. In the Beardmore books in the University of Glasgow Archive there are details of other work on American munitions such as the Long Tom.All munition production, including airframes and bombs, were governed by the board and that included all research and development for all nations.
Grand Slam, Tallboy, disney Bomb etc etc joint weapons
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
Yes there is alot of detail missing and there is a confusion of facts. Clyde Alloy is mentioned, they produced 99 operational Grand Slams and a lot of Tallboys but they also produced the metal for the X Craft submarines. That is mentioned in the book.
American filling was a lot different from British filling. Canada also produced a lot of filling. The British RDX was more stable because it used a natural stabiliser which could not be manufactured by scientific means – beezwax
chaza87US Use of Tallboy / Grand Slam…
Yes we are indeed talking about Upkeep and its family and the generic drawings.
And indeed the ofset tails of Tallboy and Grandslam et al they are American in origin
chaza87US Use of Tallboy/Grandslam et al
In addition to Project Ruby was project Harken. Harken had two phases as did Ruby. The two phases were British and American. Ruby tested Grandslam and Tallboy and their American developments Samson and Amazon. American bombs were generally welded whereas the British weapons were cast. They were cast by the Colvilles group in Scotland and not by English Steel. Some of the shipyards such as Browns cast Tallboy. Ruby proved the integrity of welding while cast bombs broke.
Disney was Rocket powered. You can see the damage in the U Boat pens which were credited to Tallboy. Disney was an Admiraly project which interested the Americans. Two disneys were carried under the wings of a Seventeen. Harken tested a 12000lb development of Disney which was 1650LBs but in model form. These weapons were dropped by B29’s since we did not have the capability of dropping from high altitude.
All these weapons can be considered as joint Anglo American. The drawings of the American spherical mine and the British spherical mine are only days apart. In fact the off set tail of Grandslam and Tallboy were American designs.The heavy bomb sling was designed by a Polish officer and was the subject of an award by the Royal Commission on Awards to Inventors.
The American interest in the heavy aerial bomb went to a giant 44000lb bomb which initially was cast in 1946 and was carried internally by the B36, it could carry two.Tallboy could be carried by a B29 internally with a special bomb bay but resulted in a great loss of performance.The B32 was capable of carrying Tallboy
Legend has the British Tallboys being converted at Guam into a radio controlled bomb termed Tarzon or the VB-13. It had an RCA radio controlled system and a circular wing. It was highly successful in Korea blowing bridges and was used to attack a Korean dam.
chaza87The americans developed Grand slam into a 40000lb monster to be dropped from a B36.
Legend has a 29 flying with one but never proved. The 29 could carry tallboy and grandslam.These were dropped in Project Ruby. But best of all was Tarzon dropped in Korea and that was the Grandson of Moab, it was radio controlled
chaza87MOAB
The americans developed Grand slam into a 40000lb monster to be dropped from a B36.
Legend has a 29 flying with one but never proved. The 29 could carry tallboy and grandslam.These were dropped in Project Ruby. But best of all was Tarzon dropped in Korea and that was the Grandson of Moab
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