AE90The TSR.2 relied on a turbojet. For the intended mission a clear disadvantage in terms of range. The TF30 also was not just another turbofan, it was a very efficient afterburning TF, due to relatively high bypass ratio. Note that the RB199 uses exactly the same bypass ratio.
The swing wings also allowed more efficient cruise over long distances. While the also added problems, so I wouldn’t nail it down on swing wings. I consider them a too high price to pay for the added capability most of the time.Further on, I doubt that the TSR.2 would have been equally flexible in the weapons loads. The problems of the F-111 were of course partly caused by the tough requirements, foremost the extreme “need for speed” (M1.2 low, M2.5 high).
Anyways, the Su-24, which basically was an F-111 with TSR.2 engines, fall markedly short in range compared to the F-111.
SU-24 was an F-111 with Turbojets not an Olympus by a long chalk, SU-24 had an appaling combat radius (TSR-2 carried a considerable amount of fuel so it had a respectable combat radius/range) As for speed i would doubt that a F-111K would be able to keep up with a TSR-2 (F-111K would have used an engine that couldn’t produce the same thrust wet that Olympus could dry); Which then begs the question how long could a F-111K troll along at low Mach1 (M1.2 say)?
AE90I think in terms of operational capability the F-111 clearly put the TSR.2 in second place. Primary reason: the engine.
care to elaborate on that? Turbojet vs. Turbofan issue?
AE90Given that BAe carried out the overhaul work for UK based USAF F-111 I agree that if accepted into service additional F-111Ks would have been purchased. This may have led to the F-111K being developed into a similar platform to the USAF versions and growth curve.
If the UK had bought the F-111K who else may have bought it? would the UK have also bought the EF-111 or developed a similar platform. Would it have developed a Recce and Anti-Ship capabilities like the RAAF?
If this had happened there would have been no need for the Tornado which means no Panavia consortium. This may have meant that Anglo/French co-operation could have continued with the Rafale or its equivilent being developed to replace the Jaguars, F-111K and existing Air Defence Fighters. Maybe the Mirage 4000 would have been developed into a production platform?
Speaking of Air Defence fighters with no Tornado what would have replaced the Lightning and Phantom? Would we have bought the F/A18A or Mirage 2000?
Real food for thought!
Can’t see UK interest in rafale no matter what F-111K was like. Perhaps there would have been more numbers, initially 2 squadrons (perhaps later procurements to take it upto 4) and 2 more in the anti-shipping role* (AGM84 or AM39) but i can’t see it growing any more than that; F-111K was intended for recce/strike, there wouldn’t have been a seperate variant.
As for AD, perhaps Mirage 4000 but i wouldn’t wager that any nation would be prepared to be the only buyer for a foreign aircraft that can’t even be sold to the country in question so unless BAe could take control with Dassault taking a back seat it wouldn’t happen**; (ISD wouldn’t be any earlier than 1987 i’d say so that might a bit late, which makes F-15C odds on favourite). As i’ve already said F-15C would be a more likely candidate (perhaps RR could license build F100-220 which could form part of a late 80’s F-111K upgrade/Life extension programme![on a side note imagine M4000 with F100-220’s:eek:]).
As for F-18, it is a serious contender for a Phantom replacement but for AD? I wouldn’t want to rely on it; On the opposite side of the table F-15C is more than adequette replacement for FGR.2’s in the interceptor role but that would leave crab air with less A2G capability (it would be too late to look at more F-111 by that point).
*Chance of ASh variant isn’t high with the navy ‘Donating’ all their Buccs to the RAF after Eagle and the Ark were binned.
**Theres nothing to say that BAe/UK wouldn’t join M4000 project in the late 70’s anyway but assuming that doesn’t happen.
AE90Actually, the French have had many successful multi-national consortiums (Transall, Alphajet, Horizon, FREMM, Helios, not to mention all the Airbus and Eurocopter aircraft, including NH90).
For whatever reason, it’s only on the minority of projects where both the French and the Brits are both onboard that problems arise: Jaguar, CVF, Eurofighter, Horizon… The only exception is for missiles (PAAMS, Storm Shadow). Who’s to say the French are to blame? :diablo:
never tried saying that it was always the French fault that they all went to the dogs, BTW: You’re forgetting AFVG and one or two more i think.
and as for EFA if the RN had required a naval CTOL fighter, would France still have demanded 50% workshare(despite the fact that overall numbers and funding from/to france wouldn’t have exceeded 30%) and to be Project leader?
AE90Of course you could put two squadrons of Hellfire equipped Sea Cobras on a LHD and fly barrier patrol, but then you need to protect those against SAMs and fighters — develops into a serious break-through battle (what is the English word for “Durchbruchsschlacht”?).
Alternatively, Sea Lynx/Sea Hawk + Sea Skua/Penguin (which have longer range than any MANPADS) and in the timeframe approaching 2020 FLynx + FASGW-H(the project seems to be leaning towards Sea Skua mk.2)
Admittedly the airborne rotary wing may not always see the launch platform before the missiles are fired, however what is to say that CAMM/ESSM + Phalanx/Goalkeeper/Millenium wont destroy the AShM long before it reaches the vessels perimiter? Obviously after launch it’s a game of cat and mouse with the FAC/Missile Boat/Corvette and…
Wait, I know this game. It’s called cat and mouse, and there’s only one way to win; don’t be the mouse.
Perfect quote.
Missile Boats are a blatant waste of money considering the slim chance of sucess even in a well coordinated attack.
AE90Well, I’d agree but only if you can show me a prior aircraft that combines VSTOL, Stealth and supersonic performance, not to mention the best sensor suite/situational awareness available.
Show me one that has range and payload of larger than that of a housefly without compromising it’s LO and i’ll consider agreeing with you, Supersonic V/STOL is something of the 1960’s and don’t confuse STOVL with V/STOL.
Ontop of this Lightning will not provide as much of an improvement over Harrier in FAA/RAF service as you may well like to think, take that into consideration.
AE90If I understand the origins of the Rafale correctly if there’d been a requirement for replacement C-TOL RN aircraft, the French might never have left the Typhoon programme and Typhoons would be flying from CDG. The increased number of orders for the FAA plus the French might have lead to a smoother development and earlier in-service date (another reason for the French withdrawl from EFA)
well it might have resulted in an Anglo-French EFA (not too sure about German, Spanish and Iti involvement maybe they would be involved but i’d wager they would buy SHs instead.)
but multinational consortiums with the French never went too well (theres no way to word that well)
AE90*and the French? Hey actually hang on that’s not so silly mayhap give our gallic chums a chance to show that they can play nice in multi-national aircraft porgrammes
oh come on, why collaborate when you can do it yourself with half the performance for 3/2 of the cost?
on a less synical note:
producing Sea Tonka’s would have cost more than anglocising Tomcats and i think Obi Wan hit it on the head suggesting tonka avionics in a bucc package (even when they were replaced by the RAF the Bucc wasn’t an exhausted design that had been eclipsed by bigger, better and brighter A/C. As for Phantom Blue-Vixen or similar (Early 90’s might be a bit late, perhaps modified AN/APG-66 (i couldn’t put a time scale to this but i think it was late 80’s?)
also something to consider is that the need for a replacement CTOL naval fighter in the mid 90’s would have changed MoD’s mood towards EF Programme so who can tell whether a Naval P.110/120/ACA would replace them or late F-18C perhaps F-18E at a push
AE90Toss up between Canberra and the Lightning… i can’t choose between them
AE90Naval Tonka maybe? Sea Tornado?
Sea Tonka is a no, by late 80’s the only real CTOL jet the FAA could operate (assuming we had the carriers of course) is an Anglosised F-18C
AE90Two thoughts occur
1)….would F111K still be in service? The RAAF has managed to keep a smaller fleet operational until now.
2)…..would F111K (Merlin??) Have been of any use in Operation Black Buck?
to the first, ’69-’09 is a bit long.. my guess it it would’ve been replaced by GR.1A Tonka’s in the early 90’s
AE90I gather that it came after the TSR-2 cancellation, so that wasn’t a factor.
I suppose cash would make sense, as the F-111 cost’s certainly went up.
not the deciding factor but a factor nonetheless,
The first RAF F-111 squadrons were going to be based at Honington. How many F-111 squadrons might the RAF have had ? What would the squadron numbers have been ? Where were the other likely bases ? Would they still have been in service today (like the RAAF aircraft) ?
46+4 units as for everything else.. who can tell?
AE90-Wasn’t as good as the cancelled TSR-2
-Run out of money
-Labour Government
-Many, Many more
AE90I find it amusing that someone with the screenname EELightning would refer to the F-4 in negative terms since, unless you are blind, the Lightning has to be one of the ugliest airplanes to have ever been designed.
The F-4 is unorthodox yes, but ugly….no. It’s a thing of beauty.
The Lightning? Flat out ugly.
all depends on the angle, if you look at EE Lightning from above and behind (looking towards the nose) it looks like a sack of **** tied up with string.. the same can be said for the phantom from underneath it looks good but anywhere else and it’s disgusting
personally i nominate Hawker Sea Hawk as vile… i may or may not be in a minority.
AE904rth gen. fighters
My personal favorite is F-16, F-18, and 5th gen F-22.
My ugliest fighters are Mig-21/J-7,Jaguars, J-10, EF-Typhoon.
In general 4th gen U.S fighters were the best good-looking IMO.
Jags possibly, but Tiffies?
not going to submit a whole generation but does BAe Hawk count? 🙂
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