RoovialkAction talks bigger than words. F-22 has lower RCS, perhaps, but no way it’s stealth. Look, I don’t make the rules of physics. God does that. F-22 has never been proven in combat against any fair adversary. Unless it is proven, it is but a paper raptor.
If F-22 isn’t a stealth aircraft then explain why the Russian T-50, Chinese J-20 and J-21 all closely resemble the F-22? All three of these aircraft boast from their manufacturers that they are stealthy aircraft
RoovialkNo nation, if given the opportunity will pass on copying something that is very capable, and that would otherwise cost it an arm and a leg to develop. If the US does not want its stuff to be copied, they must protect it better, as is being done. With things like procedures, doctrine, tatics etc, those are copied all the time. Why not use something that has years of operational success? It would be dumb not to.
Regarding the procedures China is copying aboard the Lioaning including flight deck procedures and even the Ouija board aircraft handling system raises the question of do the Chinese even know what they are copying?
Or is it some sort of pantomime? In many cases being shown in videos taken onboard the Chinese carrier it appears that the deck crew is behaving as actors seen in the movie “Top Gun” and doing things that have no connection with the reality that is happening on the deck
A case in point is the running up to a J-15 which has just trapped onboard the carrier. In the case of a US Navy carrier, green shirt personnel called “hook runners” run up to the recently landed aircraft and using a long pole type device, help disengage the hook from the arresting gear and allows the aircraft to taxi clear of the landing zone. This ensures that the landing of the next aircraft proceeds smoothly and efficiently.
In the case of the Chinese greenshirts they just run up to the aircraft and appear to be standing around confused until the aircraft is directed to taxi out of the landing zone. If the Chinese are actually using the example of the American navy greenshirts how did they miss this important step? If China is trying to build a skilled deck crew they are building procedures today that will be difficult to un-learn at a later date. Some of these examples that have been observed are actually dangerous for deck operations.
RoovialkIn the long run, it is ok for everyone to steal, and everyone has stole from each other.
But I don’t think anyone has patented the ouija board as a means for keeping track of a flight deck, and it would be stupid for PLAN to use a different way for their first carrier.
Besides, to lead, you need to catch up first. Being snide about it only conveys a sense of bitterness or threat on your part.
How is pointing out the stealing or blatant copying by China of just about everything a “sense of bitterness or threat”? What is there to be bitter about?
RoovialkAre you telling the Members of this Forum. That it is ok for China to Steal??? We are not talking about a concept and then improving on it. China in fact has no problem stealing and making exact copies of whatever it wants. Regardless, if its Military or Private Sector.
No I am not condoning the stealing of invention and / or intellectual property by any country, culture, or group. I hope that this clears my position up
RoovialkYou remember the Wen Ho Lee scandal at the Los Alamos labs. Congress immediately passed a law banning anyone of Chinese descent form working at US government labs and R&D facilities. Then they had to cancel it days after. You know why? Because scientists and engineers that were of Chinese descent were playing an important role for the US but the dummies in Congress believed the propaganda until those that knew had to tell them the truth. Replacing them wasn’t an option so who’s the one leading who?
If this statement is true then why is it China with all the engineers and scientists of Chinese descent in the world is not doing better in the areas of aerospace and R&D? Surely if being of Chinese descent was that big a factor China would be much more innovative than it is.
Roovialk[ATTACH=CONFIG]220317[/ATTACH]
US Navy Ouija board
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PLAN Ouija boards compared.
While using the American Navy as a model for carrier operations gives the Chinese a headstart on gaining proficiency I wonder at some point will this return to bite them in the behind
RoovialkChinese President Xi Jin Ping visited the Shenyang MD on the 28th, with a specific tour of the carrier aircraft land training facility. After the tour he visited the carrier Liaoning berthed at Dalian Shipyard. While there he was shown various aspects of the ship including a Chinese copy of the Ouija Board system modeled after United States Navy system and the Chinese version of the LSO station. [ATTACH=CONFIG]220312[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220313[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220314[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220315[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]220316[/ATTACH]
RoovialkBahaha.
So show me where Medvedev EXPLICITLY warned China?
No reference or link given will convince you that China coveting resources in Siberia has put Russia on edge and could push Russia into an alliance with other countries seeking to contain Chinese hegemony so why don’t we leave you to your own thoughts and watch how events play out in the future…ok?
RoovialkAh will you stop?
You keep quoting articles where the journalists add in “show of force” “message to China” blah blah blah . I take it thats better proof than the Russian leadership constantly saying they have growing ties with China, making military maneuvers with China, etc etc? Please.
Did you miss this quote from the Russian leadership? Let me post it for you again. Pay attention to the bold type. The quote is from Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev not some Russian citizen on the streets
“….Just days after Russia announced that it was sending two new nuclear submarines to join its Pacific Fleet, the Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has released a warning to China regarding its influence in the region. He stated that it is “important not to allow negative manifestations, including the formation of enclaves made up of foreign citizens,” and that Russian must defend its lands against “excessive expansion by bordering states.”
By the way, since you are a fan of selective reading, from your article: “While no military conflict between Russia and China is in sight”
Read it several times. End of story.
I know that this education I am giving you about China coveting the natural resources of Russian Siberia is painful but just think for a moment: China needs resources and Russian Siberia has an abundance of them. And Russian Siberia is right on China’s doorstep. Would you like for me to give quotes on how China secretly has cast a longing eye on the resources of Siberia?
With China becoming more and more aggressive in its dealings with its neighbors it is only logical that these neighbors would consider banding together to ‘contain’ the Chinese threat. That could mean Japan and Russia consider some type of pact. And remember the two main enemies of China are India and Vietnam. Both are Russian allies or client states at the very least. A person would be foolish to discount this obvious reality.
RoovialkYaaawn.
RUssia carries out military exercises with every threat in mind.
Who the hell invented that it is to “warn” the Chinese? I guess they warned them in the numerous JOINT exercises they have had in past 10 years, something unprecedented for the two countries.
So you admit that Russia sees China going after the rich natural resources of Siberia as a threat. Good
Like I said, China attacking Siberia is a laughable scenario, to put mildly.
The actions of Russian political leadership are a much better reflection than some silly analysis of a military exercise.And yes, some Russians making a study about the Chinese threat is not good evidence that Russia is resentful or worried about China, past normal strategic concern.
After you stop your nervous laughter perhaps you might want to read these analysis of the potential for a China – Russia dust up over Siberia. As Russia becomes weaker and China continues to strengthen its military the Russians are concerned enough to give several warnings to China to keep a lid on things. It appears that you are allowing wishful thinking to take the place of sober analysis of a possible situation between Russia and China
And remember this is over natural resources. Russia has alot and the Chinese have little. Most wars in history have been fought over natural resources.
As you can see from the links posted below there is much discussion for the potential of China and Russia going toe to toe over Siberia. I have posted links supporting my POV. I invite you to post information supporting yours
Oh and one more thing: Note that these discussions are fairly recent and come from a variety of sources
http://hir.harvard.edu/will-china-colonize-and-incorporate-siberia?page=0,1
WASHINGTON (VOR)— This week Russia held its biggest military excercise since Soviet times.
Russian military demonstration in Siberia meant for Chinese …
“…Over 150 thousand troops and five thousand tanks practiced maneuvers across Siberia on Tuesday in a massive show of strength. Russia and China announced $270 billion worth of energy deals last month, and Russia is delivering a variety of important military equipment and technology to China. But China’s army is far bigger than Russia’s, and Russia is certainly apprehensive about the balance of power. While no military conflict between Russia and China is in sight, the exercise was no doubt meant as a show of strength to China….”
“….Russia and China have strong diplomatic and trade relations, often supporting each other in the UN, yet there is a source of tension between the two nations which has been growing and looks as though it may be about to peak; the matter of Chinese influence in Russia’s Far East.
Just days after Russia announced that it was sending two new nuclear submarines to join its Pacific Fleet, the Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev has released a warning to China regarding its influence in the region. He stated that it is “important not to allow negative manifestations, including the formation of enclaves made up of foreign citizens,” and that Russian must defend its lands against “excessive expansion by bordering states.”
RoovialkYou are worrying about the Senkakus and Russia is worrying about China seizing Siberia. Two very different things.
RoovialkRussia understands that China is hungry for the natural resources Siberia possesses. It is natural with all the posturing and posing that China is doing these days that push could come to shove if China for whatever reason decides that it needs to take Siberian resources to keep its economy afloat. China makes its neighbors nervous.
Self preservation can make enemies friends
I believe the saying goes that there are no friends or enemies, only shared interests
RoovialkIt isn’t a wild card in reality at all. Russia has far more fruitful and perspective relationship with China than anyone else in East Asia, and it acts accordingly. Resentment? Please.
The whole “China Siberia” thing is a fantasy of Western commentators for the most part.
Russia sees relations with China as a natural counter to the US-Japanese block in the region.
There is absolutely zero chance Russia abandons China for Japan. The Kuril issue is not being solved anytime soon, while Russia and China enjoy a robust military relationship.
China is relevant as far as Central Asia is concerned as well.
I guess you must have missed the Russian exercise Vostok 2010. Apparently you have not been keeping up with current events:
“….In June and July 2010, Russian armed forces conducted Vostok 2010, a series of 10-day unprecedented military exercises. These were made up of a set of strategic exercises that involved 20,000 troops, up to 70 warplanes and 30 warships from the Far Eastern, Siberian and Volga-Urals military districts, as well as the Pacific Fleet. Designed primarily to put the military to the test, these wargames were also a warning to Chinese military officials who were present during the exercise. Vostok 2010 simulated a response to a possible attack from China. It included the firing of live ammunition, simulated airborne assaults and amphibious assault landings…..”
The Russians conducted re-deployment of forces from European Russia as they demonstrated the ability to re-enforce Eastern Forces in response to a simulated Chinese attack
“…..Another first, was the redeployment of Sukhoi Su-24M frontline bombers and Su-34 multi-role fighters from bases in the European part of Russia 8,000 km away in non-stop flights with two in-flight refuellings. The exercise also marked the first time mechanised infantry airlifted from the Ural Mountains used heavy weapons stored at reserve depots established near the Chinese border…..”
RoovialkRussia has it’s own disputes with Japan over the Kuril Islands and also agitates the Japanese with aircraft incursions.
However media doesn’t report this as China is current enemy no 1 and not Russia.
Russia is far friendlier with China these days and happily loads them up with weapons. Just a couple of weeks ago China and Russia participated in a massive naval exercise.
Also Russia knows that Japan is allied with USA and Russia still views USA as enemy.
Russians have been butting heads with USA/EU too on matters such as Syria. They’re also conducting military exercises based on attaks on European countries (e.g. recent Zapad exercise)
According to Deng Xiaoping Vietnam was acting on behalf of the Soviet Union when they invaded Cambodia. In fact China’s attack on Vietnam was to indirectly teach the Soviets a lesson. The point is that Russia and Vietnam remain friends and China remains wary of containment by nations surrounding China. This common interest is the basis for a possible alliance by nations who feel threatened by China as a regional super power
Today Russia being a European state fears China annexing Siberia because of China’s need for natural resources. There has been much discussion on the web of China grabbing Siberia See the links below
http://hir.harvard.edu/will-china-colonize-and-incorporate-siberia
These two Russian sites (below) discuss China as an emerging threat. This was as late as 2010. So to pretend that all is well between China and Russia fails to take into account the feelings of the Russians. Russia is just as concerned with China flexing its muscles as Japan and the rest of the South East Asian nations. I am basing my opinions on the growing concerns the Russians have about the Chinese
RoovialkAnd do not forget that China backs Pakistan while Russia backs India. India is now reaching out to Vietnam and together these two countries see themselves as natural allies against China. There is plenty of room for new anti Chinese alliances to be formed
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