If they are serious about high-tempo carrier ops they will have to use buddy tanking like the USN does — the USN hasn’t had a true tanker on CVNs since the KA-6Ds were retired. I know buddy tanking has been done on Flankers before, but I don’t know how much offload capacity a Flanker can carry when it is launching from a STOBAR deck.
Is there any evidence of PLAN aircraft, specifically J-11/J-15 carrying out buddy refueling? I was not aware of any.
And your point regarding J-15s lifting off a STOBAR deck with enough fuel to act as a tanker is important.
Without having a tanker acting as a safety net during blue water ops the PLAN may have to modify its ideas about how far from land they can operate.
One idea they might consider is to have a land based tanker aloft during PLAN flight operations. Its not an elegant solution but it is better than nothing. An H-6U equipped with RDC-1 aerial refuelling pods might be pressed into service as a temporary measure
You seem to be saying that if you’re not equal to the USN in every way then you might as well not bother.
So far the PLAN has copied US Navy carrier procedures right down to the postures adopted by deck crew, color coded jerseys and hand signals used to direct aircraft on the deck.
This is clear evidence that the PLAN is attempting to measure itself against a US Navy yardstick.
They really have no other choice as they attempt to get up to speed as quickly as possible
Point taken. Its the US Navy and then all the rest. My point is that China will have to earn its place at the table
Russia had a long spell in which everything fell apart. Carrier ops nearly stopped. Crew training of all kinds was severely curtailed. Nor did they have any experience of or exposure to conventional carriers, or full-deck carriers, until they built Kuznetsov – which commissioned just in time to do almost nothing for years. The Chinese are moving much more quickly, because their carrier is fully funded, & they’re therefore able to maintain a much higher tempo of trials. I expect them to overtake the Russians rather quickly.
China has tried to emulate American carrier procedures as closely as possible. This is the best thing they could do since the US Navy is the gold standard of carrier operations.
However push is going to come to shove when the PLAN moves beyond the safety of Chinese waters and having everyone watch their blue water flight ops. At that time China will not be able to carefully stage photo op landings and takeoffs and will be graded by all the navies of the world. To run with the big dogs China will have to conduct flight operations at night, conduct operations during rough seas, and do very serious deck operations on a wet, slick, crowded flight deck filled with men, machines and aircraft.
At that time we shall see how China actually ranks with other carrier operators.
Will they be up to the challenge? Only time will tell. China has announced that they will conduct blue water carrier operations later this year. It remains to be seen how China defines blue water operations. Already there is one key strike against Chinese carrier operations and that is not having organic tanker support.
This means that if the PLAN chooses to conduct true blue water operations any aircraft with a problem will be forced to land on the carrier or land in the water. For without carrier based tanker support there will not be the safety net of a land divert field. It will be interesting to see how China handles situations like that.
What are you talking about? India went from no carrier to a fully operational carrier in a few years, by buying an ex-British carrier & aircraft. The USSR didn’t try to build a fixed-wing carrier for many years, because it didn’t fit their plans. When their plans changed, they moved at a decent pace.
The Indians had the Brits to refer to and the Russians had as stated before many years of experience with aircraft at sea before they tried conventional aircraft at sea. Russia had always wanted conventional aircraft at sea and approached the subject in a cautious and systematic way. And even using that approach the Russians still lag in deck handling procedures and flight operations tempo.
The point is that there is no easy way to gain the experience necessary except by trial and error and hard won lessons
China has already spent many years preparing. Why do you talk of short cuts? They’ve been gradually, carefully, gaining knowledge. I expect they know everything there is to know about carrier operations without having experience, and now they are building up practical experience. They aren’t starting from scratch. They are not taking short cuts. It’s been a long, cautious, progress (they first got their hands on a second-hand carrier in the mid 1980s), which is now approaching fruition.
China has taken carrier operations as far as they can without going to sea. These first steps of a couple of J-15s on their starter carrier reflect the approach they are taking. Now China has stated that Liaong will begin blue water ops sometime this year. It will be interesting to see how this works out under the professional scrutiny of the navies of the world. I look forward to the developments
Instead, they have a functional “training” carrier on which they can sort out and codify the differing procedures of other nations, and adapt them into a coherent and uniquely PLAN-fitted set of operational instructions… and do it in just a couple of years, not the decades the “do it themselves” approach would require.
The Russians with much more aviation at sea experience (Moskova, Kiev, etc) have taken a considerable amount of time to get to where they conduct fixed wing aircraft operations from their carrier. Why would the Chinese have any special advantage?
While India adopted RN procedures whole-sale in 1961 when they received the completed INS Vikrant, the intervening 42 years have seen them adapt and modify those for changing aircraft and cultural imperatives, so that their procedures are not 100% like anyone else’s either.
Notice the time. 42 years. Why would China somehow have short cuts that others have not realized? China has tried to adopt USN type deck procedures for the Liaong. This is a good start for them. But carrier deck operations are not easy to get right. Especially if you have no history of aviation at sea.
Japanese navy is hostile
To who? I’ve never had any problem with them
With all due respect, but that’s rubbish. I would feel much safer going to China than your “wonderful ” America, and this coming from a caucasian! (in fact i would love to go to China one day).
Flights leave daily for China so if you are still in the United States why aren’t you on one?
As for factors overlooked, there are indeed those that weigh in favour of the United States and its likely allies. I grant, for example, that the US is likely to retain a technological edge over China for the foreseeable future even as the gap is steadily narrowed. However there are also counter-vailing factors, such as the fact that the US power projection in the region is based upon a relatively small number of carriers and bases, all of which will be high priority targets for destruction, whilst China will be able to benefit from varying degrees of land-based airpower. We could go on listing qualitative factors all day, but I would deny that their balance weighs conclusively — if at all — in favour of the United States.
China has bigger problems to be concerned with than American power projection in the Pacific. China should be worrying about how it will project power to protect its vital interests,
For example look at how China is even today dependent upon a fragile energy lifeline that travels by sea, where interdiction of this energy lifeline is possible by other players not directly connected with the United States. Consider how China might respond if oil shipments from Angola were interrupted by a civil war in that country. Today nearly 40 percent of Angolan oil is exported to China, and this represents 16 percent of Chinese imports of hydrocarbons. China does not have the sea power to protect this long and vital lifeline, and will not have it for some time.
There are several structural problems of this nature that China will be forced to deal with in the near term that can threaten the integrity of Chinese society that America has nothing to do with. I for one am interested in the Chinese response to these problems
USA’s decline started in 1960s when industry started to go off shore. They’ve been unable to stem that flow despite being well aware of it (e.g. the Rust Belt).
The x-factor in this equation is the creativity inherent in the American people. Its in the spirit of America because America is made up of this polyglot of peoples which offer opportunities for idea cross fertilization not seen anywhere else in the world. America is unique. Private commercial space is a perfect example of this where a South African can come to the United States and after being successful in software translate into realizing his dream of building a spacefaring company. Monotone societies cannot do this. A non-Chinese person could never migrate to China and hope to be accepted as Chinese. Where a Chinese person could migrate to America and then become an American. That flexibility is strength
The (very) condensed version of my take on the world and Australia’s place in it is that we are entering a period of unprecedented global change manifested most obviously and significantly in the Australian context by the relative decline of American power in the face of a rising China. I do not believe that conflict between these two nations is inevitable, but I do believe that it is possible, and increasingly likely from the mid-2020s to mid-2030s, and further that in the event of such a conflict it is entirely possible that America will lose. Worst-case scenario is the eruption of major conflict between China and the United States, strikes conducted (quite reasonably) against US bases in Australia leading to Australia’s entry into the war, the defeat of the US-led alliance and imposition of terms on a defeated Australian nation.
In a China – America conflict during the time frame you mention it is just as likely and even more so that China could suffer defeat due to several important factors you choose to overlook. The wishful thinking of a linear rise of Chinese power is the most serious case of rose colored glasses I have seen in quite a while. And the incessant predictions of the decline of American power echoes as a clarion call to American ears all across the United States.
– Japan
– Taiwan
– ROK
– North Korea <= Yup, North Koreans hate China the most.
– India
– Mongolia
– Vietnam
– Philippines
– AustraliaThe list goes on and on and on.
Funny how all these different countries seem to agree upon a common enemy. Are they all nuts or is China becoming drunk with power? It is a question that demands an answer
The US psychologically and economically needs enemies. Look at even little Cuba which poses no threat but the US still treats them as an enemy at the gate.
Don’t get it twisted. When Castro came to power the US welcomed him with open arms. He seemed like someone who the US could deal with. Then Castro went rogue and started acting crazy. His ambition to be a player in Latin America drove him into the arms of the Soviets and he nearly caused WW3. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis.? The United States has been wary of him ever since. Please get your facts straight.
China considers using drones in Myanmar
China considered using a drone strike in a mountainous region of Southeast Asia to kill a Myanmar drug lord wanted in the murders of 13 Chinese sailors.
PLAN trains
According to this account the PLAN Red Flag exercise threw a couple of curve balls at the participating Red units
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/8/inside-china-english-speaking-enemy/#ixzz2KPG94nVy