But for the PLAN it IS 1948. China is dreaming if they think they can somehow master carrier operations before 2030. This admission of deaths in their carrier program seems to explain the current snail’s pace of their work up for carrier operations. And speculation is that there could be much more to this story.
A major accident on deck could be the reason why the PLAN was so touchy about the USS Cowpen’s getting close to the Liaoning during that carrier’s first deployment to the South China Sea back in November 2013.
In any event this is proof that having a carrier and knowing how to use a carrier are two very different things. More information on the circumstances of these training deaths are bound to leak out sooner or later.
Whatever the circumstances were concerning the loss of these pilots you can be sure there will be many more if the PLAN really decides to get serious about aviation on carriers.
“…The number of U.S. sailors and Marines who have died in and around aircraft carriers is: 8,500 from 1948 to 1988..”
“…More than 12,000 aircraft have been lost during the Navy’s transition to jet aviation…”
For China to lose a couple of pilots during their attempts to work up on the Liaoning is just a down payment on the final toll.
I guess Russia didn’t get enough trouble with Chechnya. Ukraine would be Chechnya many times over if they decide to fully invade that country. Meanwhile likenesses like this are appearing all over Moscow as Putin builds on his cult of personality.
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The Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning, left the re-fitting yard some time ago. What is the current status of the ship? Is she still tied up dockside?
Yes engines. Any news on that front?
The F-18 High Alpha Research Vehicle (HARV) also had paddles. Its a quick way for Japan to get into the TVC game
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I’m a reasonable person who can be persuaded with evidence. Show me the numbers. Break it down to gun kills, WVR missile kills, and BVR kills from the Gulf War on.
Here is the break down: “..In Bekaa Valley in 1982, 8 kills were with guns, 54 with IR missiles and 12 with radar-guided missiles; more than half of kills were made by “multirole” F-16 despite it being primarly tasked with bombing missions. All radar-guided missile kills except one were from visual range. Total of 5 BVR shots were made, making data range very low…”
Note that most kills were made WVR. Dog fights.
Regarding gun kills we see this:
“During Six Day war all shootdowns achieved by Israeli were by cannon. It dropped to 70% during Attrition War, 30% during Yom Kippur war, and 7% in Lebanon Interdiction in 1972. During 1982, only 4 shootdowns scored by British fighters were by gun, and US only scored 2 during Desert Storm.”
The Israelis seem to favor guns whenever the opportunity presents itself
Source: http://defenseissues.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/air-to-air-weapons-effectiveness/ I have more if needed
Except BVR air war is extensively combat proven where as pre-Vietnam it was only theory which ignored real world evidence. Now you’re making the same non-evidence based assumptions. WVR combat continues to be something to prepare for, but no one is building fighters that emphasis WVR over BVR. In a future WVR fight the capability of the dogfight missile is more likely to be decisive than having a small fighter.
Better check with the Israeli Air force as they have been quite successful with WVR air combat using guns. And whenever the Mark-1 eyeball is used in air-to-air combat the smaller fighter is favored. Check Red flag.
Big fighters are spotted earlier when things get down to WVR combat.
In the real world MiG-21 stand no chance against F-15s. Yes you can construct unrealistic scenarios where the F-22 can be shot down by a biplane but what is the relevance? Real world air battles are primarily BVR engagements supported by AWACS.
The relevance is that the USAF does not want a repeat of the air battles over North Vietnam where a mistaken over reliance on missile technology and the BVR fight led to the belief that WVR combat was a thing of the past. Lessons learned from that conflict have led to making sure that all American fighters have an internal gun and are trained to smoothly transition from missiles to guns as the need may arise.
The ATD-X is a technological demonstrator, and if anything comes out of it, according to official press releases by the Japanese MOD, it will be a great big aircraft (the “F3”), powered by two “15 Tons” engines, that means something the size of a Raptor/T50.
We will all have to wait and see. One thing for sure is that Japan is developing a world class engine to power the F-3. Looks like the indigenous Japanese engine for the ATD-X / F-3 will be the strongest and most advanced engine in the Asian sphere
“Previously disclosed elements of the Japanese engine research include single-crystal turbine rotor blades, stator blades made of ceramic matrix composite (a ceramic reinforced with carbon fiber) and an advanced combustor.”
by your logic, USAF should replace its F-15s with Mig-21s.
this is the human resource of modern Japan. very sad.
http://www.vice.com/vice-special/aokigahara-suicide-forest-v3
You seem to be unaware of the results of Cope India 2004. Within the strict rules of engagement the IAF handed the USAF some surprises.
The JASDF equipped with their ATD-X and F-15J’s can hand out similar surprises to the PLAAF for the reasons I have outlined earlier.
Read about lessons learned at Cope India 2004 and I am sure that you will agree: http://theaviationist.com/2014/05/02/cope-india-2004-results/
@ Multirole:
In the times the Mig-21 and Mig-23 have gone against the F-15 they have come out on the short end of the stick. This would be USAF F-15s in the Gulf wars against the Iraqi air force and Israeli F-15s against Syrian Migs in the lop sided Bekka Valley air-to-air fight in 1989. In most of these cases the victories were scored in BVR combat.
During Cope India however the F-15s engaged Indian MiG-21s, Bisons, flown by surprisingly competent IAF pilots. using innovative tactics that surprised and impressed USAF pilots. And during the Red flag exercises it was noted as I mentioned earlier that the Su-30MKI was spotted earlier in the merge leading to WVR tussling which gave the USAF pilots tactical advantage.
Considering that the J-20 is at least as large an aircraft as the Su-30MKI and lacks the TVC of the visually smaller ATD-X it can be surmised that the J-20 may very well enter a WVR dogfight with a disadvantage against its more agile opponent.
And when one takes into account the experience and training of JASDF aircrew it can be argued that the PLAAF may be placed at even greater disadvantage.
Based on…..?
The question was wither the ATD-X aka F-3 would be a handful for the J-20.
Answer: First, just the size of the J-20 alone would give the ATD-X pilot the tactical advantage as the battle moved into WVR. During the Red Flag exercise which the IAF participated in, it was noted that the size of the Su-30MKI allowed the USAF pilots to spot the Su-30MKI first as they closed to the merge. Seeing the enemy first gives advantage. J-20 is at least as large an aircraft as Su-30MKI.
Conversely, in Cope India 2004, the Indian Mig-21 Bison offered a nasty surprise to the visiting F-15s. With its low radar visibility, instantaneous turn rate and “jackrabbit acceleration”, the Mig-21 Bison was a handful. It can be argued that ATD-X with its thrust vectoring, radar stealth features and small visual signature will offer the same and more to those J-20s and J-11s encountered over the skies of the East China sea.
Japan has always had some fantastic ideas regarding warplanes due to their imaginative science fiction. Wonder will we see something like this in the cockpit?[ATTACH=CONFIG]230052[/ATTACH]
This fighter whenever it gets built looks like it will be more than a match for the huge Chinese J-20 in an air – to -air tussle.