and matt .i still got no idea as to where i’m missing , so as to attach a file…. i tried the way Garry told me and so did with ur pic (and ty for taking pain 🙂 ) ……. and what that u meant when u said…..”type the description of the image in here” ..i can’t get it…

now this is what Garry told —- I am just going to save it to my desktop, click on the reply button, type this out, then in the bit below called “attach file” I am going to click the browse button and go to the top of the directory tree and select the image and click OK and then “submit reply”.) —– i did that too.but not coming….i’m mising something…

and Flanker_man said
—- When you reply to a post there is an ‘Attach File’ option at the bottom of the page.

Click on the ‘Browse’ button to put the filename from your PC into this window – the forum software will upload the photo from your PC and include it into your reply. ——–

well ….. matt u may need to make one more pic .so as for be to figure it out….. i think i’m missing something…if u don mind … can i bank on u to educate myself on h to post one??…

Things sound very easy from you;

yup it has to be..after all there is lot of back door diplomacy which goes arounf..elese what wud u think made French loose Asian markets to American F-series…

I do not think India would like to rely entirely on Russian technology only.

Time will show..

Flex

and ur advise is … and is based on???….

Don’t forget the deal about new mirages 2000

well i don know if it ‘ll materialise, but then I’d like to see the single seat version og the MiG-29M2 to be the one as it will offer the same capablity at half the rate and so does Indian have more facilities for the MiG-29’s than the M2K’s….. no need to sign for the M2K’s so as for the French to shift the M2K facility to India with Indian tax-payers money so as to gaurantee their future customers (if any) that ‘Yeah we got a facility and not we’ve not yet closed it down’ …

But those Rafale Bs can and do sport CFTs, which enhance the range.

but don these CFT’s add to that combat weight??…. the only thing that it can help with is to free up the hard points…agaun what I’m saying abt what the Rafales can never match with the Su-30’s

The Su-30MKI does not have GPS guided bombs like the AASM and the Rafale has the longer ranged SCALP EG as compared to the Su-30MKI which longest-range ground attack weapon is the Kh-59ME.

..well but does Rafale employ them now??… well MKI too will get more longer weapons in the form of Klub and Brahmos …

I want to see the R-77E and such in combat before I judge them better then a comparable generation missile.

and is that the same case when u judge the French and European weapons that u mwntioned??..

The French have put many very reliable and top of the range weapons into service, the Su-30MK family might be the first top of the range plane Russia has exported. It’s not a bias it’s the fact most Russian equipment in spite of the hype fails to add up. The Flankers seem to be good systems and could very well break the trend.

..well i don think Russian’s hyped up their a/c, it was the west which hyped their Russian counterparts for more funds for their military…..now whatever u mention as ‘fail to add up’ is citing the combat records fully ignoring the battlefield and that what i call a Biased one ….. now don the First Genration MiG-29 IAF have superiority over the IAF’s M2K’s ..yeas it has and the only thain that lacks is the strike role which just needs to be upgraded, coz the MiG-29’s was not meant for strike and so did the Soviets did not concentrate for larger payloads….

I guess it would come down to the nation wanting the planes. Money and infrastructure are highly important and a nation that uses Western weapons would likely favor the Rafale as compared to a nation which uses Eastern weapons.

yeah i agree .. but a western or esatern nation which already uses the Soviet origin a/c changing over to wstern systems is mainly coz of political reasons .

I don’t see any reason why they would buy the Rafale either unless of course they wanted to keep them out of Pakistani hands (doubtful Pakistan could afford Rafales anyway) or if they wanted a Western fighter to team with the Su-30MKI (doubtful due to cost). I’m not bashing the Su-30MKI or India I just would like to wait and see how it’s weapons work before really judging it.

..yup.. u r correct, but i don see that attitude when ur judging the Rafale, EF or the American F-series ….

the rafale has 2 IRST (one for A2A one for A2G), one laser and a TV camera.

and u mean to say….. MKI don have these?

Sorry, for the rafale, it’s the same thing.

yup but at the cost of internal fuel

No mirages 2000 or RAafle ever crashed for a problem of flight control system failure.

and coz the MKI prototype crashed (is that what u saying abt) does not mean there is flaw, u must have seen how that one crashed …..

But waht about the reliability of the engines ?
Do you still need to check the engines every 300 hours ?
The French AF refuse an engine under 400 hours.

but then even the poorly credited RD-33 has 200+ hrs and with the IAF doin 200 hrs per year… ateleast that will give a one year period and that’s not that bad ….. I don know h many hrs the AL-series have but then even if its 300 hrs that does not mean its every other 6 months … but then the low cost must be balancing these , but then u can’t expect such thing on a costly things which only will increase ur headache…… and u must have heard some AF’s (I don rem which one…..can some one put which ) changing over their old Mirages engines to RD-33 , now Y did they not choose the M2K’s engine …

For air to ground the Rafale is to carry the SCALP EG (155-mile range), APACHE (80 mile range), ASMP-A nuclear cruise missile (150+ miles), AASM GPS guided bombs, AS-30L laser guided missile, Paveway family LGBs as well as the famous Exocet and possibly the PGM-1/2/3 TV/IR/Laser guided weapons. The Su-30MKI does not come close to the stand off ability or all weather accuracy of the Rafale’s large and varied arsenal of weapons. The Su-30MKI is going to carry such weapons as the Kh-59ME (50-60 miles), Kh-31A/P, Kh-29L/T, KAB family guided bombs (TV/Laser/IR) and possibly/likely one day the Brahmos.

it depends on what u want to believe…..h come u take that MKI don have stand-off ability or all weather capability??…. now did u fail to mention the more lighter air launched Klub version (again this might also be what IN’s MiG-29K’s carry as has it been speculated to be on the upgraded Tu-142, IL-38’s and also Tu-22M3) and other weapons of Russian origin

Air to air is more an unknown simply because we would have to take the manufactures word on either (of course the French are more trustworthy then the Russians). Also it would depend on how well the weapons (MICA EM/IR and R-77E/R-73E) do in combat. I would wait on the air to air until both start making kills or at least playing with each other.

wud u like to give an example as to the trustworthy abt the French (not that I don trust , but ur bias against the Russian’s) …not just coz these don have combat records does not mean they can’t do combat thats just plain BS.

The RBE-2 can engage 8 targets at once using the MICA EM while tracking 32 others for a total of tracking 40. And the Rafale has an IRST.

The RBE2 radar, or data-link information, showed eight hostile aircraft on the cockpit tactical display. The RBE2 radar will show up to 40 targets, and prioritizes eight targets as the “first to kill” and then will fire at four simultaneously with the radar-to-missiles data links working with the search and track-while-scan radar mode. The air-to-ground mode of the radar is still in development
http://www.awstonline.com/samples/cov_19990705.htm

And so does MKI have IRST, and even the Older Fulcrum-A’s that IAF use can integrate the radar and IRST information

The same can be said of the Rafale B.

– but then again the Su-30 don compromise any internal fuel for that 2nd seat and that’s not the case with any other a/c … let alone Rafale

From a tech angle I would pick the Rafale but if money was a huge factor as it often is, I would go for the Su-30MKI becuase it is cheaper and the two planes will be very very close all around.

well I see no reason as not to pick the MKI on technical front, MKI offers the same level of what Rafale offers if not better …at les than half the rate , and I’d choose MKI to built up my AF rather than wasting $$ on Rafale for half the amt of a/c that the same pocket can get hold on if it were MKI ……after all numbers do count very much

It would be lovely/scary to see them as a team as in the Su-30MKI on CAP and the Rafale on strike which would make a deadly team for anyone to face.

yup surely its lovely and scary , ….but then again for the range the strike mission demands Rafale wont match the MKI in either range nor payload, where as the MKI can carry full 8 tonnes with nearly 10 tonnes of internal fuel – a bitter fact that no can even dream off …. And I don see any good reason as to Y the rafales shud be considered for IAF .. better send those extras on more a/c and support a/c ……and that’s the case with other AF too…

well then again the radar cancellers is not whats available on MKI, but it can be developed or can be bought from France ….. if they are not wiling to part with that – then just spell out that – $2.1 billion Scorpene deal will only materialize with these transfers …. And not surprisingly the Socrpene deal swung in favor of the French coz of the obligation of the Indian side for the design support (CDG) and shipyard modification proposals that DCN provided (which again was keeping in mind the largest order for the Scorpene and the single largest batch sale of the Exocet) for the Indian Navy’s Air Defence Ship project (a/c carrier).

first of all the Su30 doesn’t have a thrust/weight ratio of 8.7. It is clearly impossible andf he should have noticed when he wrote this nonsense. This T/W ratio is more probably the AL31’s one. The Su30 normal take off weight is in the 25 ton vicinity while the AL31 has a thrust of 7.6t dry and 12.5t in afterburner. This makes an 1:1 W/T ratio at take off (knowing that weight will decrease with fuel use and thrust with altitude). Rafale come close with 16.5t normal take off weight and 15t thrust in full reheat with M88-2. India is rather to have M88-3 with 9t thrust giving a T/W advantage to the Rafale. BTW the T/W ratio of the M88-2 is over 9 and specific fuel consumption is probably lower than the AL31 one.

– and MKI comes in say 30 t normal take off weight (I’ve took full 9.6 tonne of fuel + ~ 18 t dead weight + 12 AAM w rails + extra weighing 2.4 t) and comes up with 25 t in after burner for AL-31F or 26.6 t for AL-31FP … well again the MKI can any time if choose so go in for AL-35, AL-37 or even the AL-41 where as the Rafale don have that much option ….well AL-41 were what powered the MiG-MFI on its flight (if am not wrong) .and I really wonder as to why IAF missed on engine front when they ewer in the process of creating a whole new fighter from the Su-30 , they shud have funded the AL-41 and made it the powerplant for the MKI …or atleast the other AL-3x series which gives out above 31,000 lbs in AB

– manoeuverability : very difficult to assess precisely in combat conditions but the Su 30 will have the advantages of the thrust vector engines while Rafale will have a T/W advantage in the mk2 version. Su 30 is considerably bigger and heavier at empty weight and this will probably be important in dogfight : more inertia, spotted earlier …

now h can u tell that??…… in a-a both will be light – Su-30 can still manage to take little more than half fuel internal and still be with more fuel than what Rafale can have …. Rafale may have advantage here, but how much??….

radar range : radar range depends on a number of factors (RCS, weather, operating mode …) and the 350 km range is nothing more than a brochure claim without any precision on the nature of the target. It is probably the range limiter of the software with no link with the detection range of a fighter sized target. Further more Rafale has some RCS reduction feature whose efficiency is impossible to assess. Thales has a more realistic 100 km claim against fighter targets for the RBE2. Although the Su30 could really have a range advantage against a non stealthy target the RBE2 has a passive electronically scanned antenna giving tremendous advantages in terms of agility, scanning speed, LPI,stealth, burn through range, ECCM … largely offsetting the range advantage. In the mk3 version an AESA will give even more advantages (counter measure, field of vue, range). The range advantage should not been overestimated as weapon range is smaller than radar range and that the longest ranged radar is the first to be detected on RWR. Given the size and RCS of the Su 30 it is likely that it will be detected first and the easier to track.

Maybe this fig will clear ur doubs abt the target rcs …

this fig shows for the older Su-30 radar and not the Bars … well in here it shows the RCS of the F-22 to be <-30 dBSM and that of the Su-30 to be +6dBSM …. can someone put the RCS of the other fighters…??…

and what abt the Rafale, whats that 100Km realistic range, for what size of fighter???….. and ofcourse the RCS reduction is not at all in the class of the JSF …. So lets take that atleast by 100Km the MKI will spot them

MKI’s Bars uses PESA and what the F-22 also uses which gives it the longer range Raptor has a combo of AESA and PESA and the PESA is the one that provides the Raptor with longer range and also coz the Raptor’s radar is a costly affair …. And for the MKI the N-001M bars have been given additional mechanical steering so as to increasing its scanned angles to nearly 100 degree to both sides of the normal..

other radar statistics : RBE2 can detect 40 targets of which 8 are pisted by a reinforced mode (very discrete and very stable thanks to the ability of the PESA) permitting 4 MICA firing at 2 seconds intervalls. MICA EM and IR can eventually be fired at the same target on different courses to maximise the kill probability. The weapon system integrates information from every sensors (OSF, Spectra, RBE2) using the better ability of each sensor to provide the more accurate position, range, angular discrimination, speed … the system provides the pilot with informations on the maximum firing distance and the no escape zone, missile time of flight, datalink time … entirely stealthy shot can be realised.

yup it is..and MKI offers 8 simultaneous engagement , but don know the intervals etc … and this simultaneous firing of missiles by the Su-30 is what the USAF and many others having been simulating … the MKI integrates data from different sensors for engaging targets more effectively and so does it go in for stealthy shot with the use of its navigation system

this from BR –
The N011M can function both in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea modes simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision, laser-inertial / GPS navigation system. The radar can also serve as a ‘mimi-AWACS’ and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft, with target coordinates being automatically transferred to at least four other aircraft. The radar features enhanced strike capabilities against both ground & air targets and is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system, with anti-jamming features. The aircraft has an opto-electronic surveillance & targeting system which consists of a IR direction finder, laser rangefinder and helmet mounted sight system. Ground surveillance modes include mapping (with Doppler beam sharpening), search & track of moving targets, synthetic aperture radar and terrain avoidance. To penetrate enemy defences, the aircraft can fly at low altitudes using the terrain following and obstacle avoidance feature. It enables the pilot to independently find his position without help from external sources (i.e. satellite navigation); detect ground targets and their AD systems; choose the best approach route to a target with continuous updates fed to the aircraft navigation systems; and provide onboard systems and armament with targeting data. In preliminary long range aiming, the targets (co-ordinates of which are entered into the navigation system) are locked on automatically, and the onboard locator is disengaged. The aircraft flies radio silent to the targets, and at a range close to the maximum one required for launching the weapons, the threat updating aids are engaged and the weapon is fired. In doing so, the attack time is minimal and the low-observable target approach increases the success of a mission greatly. The aircraft can be fitted with an imaging IR navigation and attack equipment pod to provide night attacks against small-size ground targets.

Once the automatic flight control system receives information from the navigation system, it solves the route flight tasks – involving a flight over the programmed waypoints, the return to the landing airfield, making a pre-landing manoeuvre and the approach for landing down to an altitude of 60 meters, as well as uses the data supplied from the weapons control and radio guidance command systems to direct the aircraft to the target and accomplish the attack. The employment of new avionics have largely contributed to the accuracy and reliability of the navigation system. Installation of the new avionics equipment with considerable power consumption necessitated, increased the capacity of the airborne electric and hydraulic power supplies. To this end, new and more powerful generators and hydraulic pumps have been installed. The communications equipment comprises VHF and HF radio sets, a secured digital telecommunications system, and antenna-feeder assembly. It mounts an automatic noise-proof target data exchange system, which provides for coordination of the actions of several fighter aircraft engaged in a group air combat.

Other sensors : Harry completely missed the OSF (front sector optronic) of the Rafale. Fitted on the F2 standard it is made of 2 sensors : a TV set(in fact a near infrared imaging camera) permitting identification in bad weather at long range and a IRST with a bi band sensor of 130 km range. The OSF comprises a laser rangefinder.

…and so does the MKI features integrating all the datas from its sensors…

navigation : the Rafale has a multi corridor navigation system comprising 2 inertial navigation units with hybridized GPS, terrain following based on ground mapping recorded on file (allowing low altitude navigation while conducting air to air tasks). The system can store hundred of waypoints and be reconfigured in flight, it computes automatically a trajectory to evade surface to air defenses and use gap in the air defense network

now I can’t cleary tell what the MKI have, but even the SMT upgrades that MiG-29 is offered features these …. GPS navigation, terrain following, terrain mapping etc….

auto diagnostic system : the on board diagnostic system continuously check the aircraft and display every critical failure to the pilot and help technicians once at home. The Rafale has been designed to be easily maintained.

and what MKI too features….

HMS : HMS will be used in combination with MICA IR on the F3 version

and Su-30/MiG-29’s were using these combinations 2 deacdes earlier ….

In conclusion (at last) the Rafale seems to me to be more advanced than the Su 30 in term of systems sophistication and integration but the difference between these 2 superb fighters will not be such that one will enjoy complete superiority over the other in any domain.

Yeah I agree with u on this …. But if at all whats missing is the radar cancellers

The Backfire bombers were very difficult to maintain it’s combat readiness. First it was a very sopisticated bomber, very powerful, but you have to see we are not buying new aircrafts, these aircrafts were built in 1980s, average 20 years of age. Does Russia can gurantee the fleet’s READINESS to fly is very questionable! Even newer bomber like the Tu160 had been crashed two months ago killing all the crews on board. The backfire were very difficult to value their seviceability. That wasnt a plane can fly can be put into combat and that was a reason PLAAF/N dont like second hand stuffs.

now what u think is stalling the USN from wiping out the PLAN from the seas.???……. as per the US doctrine emerged as to preemptive strike (don tell that N-weapons, I consider there still room for conventional engagement), now wud it have been for the USN to take on a PLAN a couple of yrs ago or a PLAN post 2005??…and any one wud tell its was earlier and now as per the pre-emptive doctrine …well then it’s the presence of the Moskit in the PLAN and also the large number of missile boats… now even these are not advanced , numbers do count and some can sneak in .and that’s what the chance the US don wanna take….. else U sud by now have said goodbye to PLAN and Twaiwan wud be the one which wud be controlling the China sea….

It IS rubbish. Like the rest of the crap from Russia. China is forced to buy Russian crap because it can’t buy western

well that means China is now full of crap…..

You don’t see Russian cars, refrigerators and earthmovers in China. You see Mercedes, Haier and Caterpillar.

now the Soviets never concentrated on civilian version of any stuffs…

In a war with the US, the Tu’s will die as quickly as the H-6s but will have cost a hell of lot more

– that’s ut illusion, the reason as to y the Tu-22M3 and Tu-160 to be made supersonic has been to fire and exit the scene as quickly as possible and these also have good love level penetration abilities and ECM’s…..and who’s is gonna sell u these.Russia??…. well I’d consider that as a pure rumour until I see one … u know even the Tu-142’s operates only in IN arsenal outside Russia and CIS (?) …..

The Su-30 is also crap when compared to Western planes. Armed by crappy missiles that probably won’t work in wartime. Especially with the degraded down versions that Russia always screws its clients with.

now that depends on as to what u wanna take… what makes an a/c good in combat is the one inside and what all makes up the a/c avionics …and Sukhoi as such is credited with the best of the aerodynamics …

The slaughter we see in the records of the F-16 and F-15, ~400 to 0, are pretty damning of the crap that China has no choice but to buy.

now that’s depends on how u fight where u fight, with what u fight and what all comes with u to fight…..and all the scores are for the team work and not on any individual a/c capability … well h come its zero??… well if u wanna ignore like what the west have been doin abt the shooting down of the F-15 and F-16 by a MiG-25 (Libya) and MiG-29 (Yugoslavia) then its fine as u say zero losses

What would be nice is several hundred of these

and that was based on the MiG-27’s

Ty falnker man…yup I’ve checked the site…..good photos….. but the pic of the cockpit are all from higher angles…..i’s say someone shuld take pics from atleast from the level of a Pilots head ….. thats wud be grrr8 coz from all the pics thats taken above the HUD’s look dominate the pic … though the two large MFD’s looks grr8… i hope some one do some photo session with all that ‘lit-up’ cockpit….. these are the picts that I heardly get to see for the Russian a/c……

..well….. RuN sud never have scrapped the Oreal project in 91 but for that Yeltsin (he just took the west for granted and made a hell) or even the Vyrag …… well but very fine that now its Putin’s Russia … whatever that damn Russia bashing western media say abt Putin or his policies, atleast form my point of view all that he is doin is very much what Russia badly needs and cheers to him and Russian’s that they got such a nice president … I just love him and wud love to see him head Russia for a decade more ….

well have the Ukranian’s ever transferred any Tu-160 or Tu-22M3 to the unkil or atleast let them “inspect” those beasts…… and have the Ukranians returned all of the???….. whats the present strength 12??…… damn how hard Unkil tried to stop the Ukranian transfer of Tu-160 back to where itr belong ……. and one more thing that i feel bad abt….. the Antonov Design Beaura – it went with Ukraine and so does Kiev (baku?) ….$hit 🙁 🙁