‘Signing of F-16 deal after Musharraf’s return’

By Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: Agreement for the purchase of F-16 aircraft from the United States will be signed after President Gen Pervez Musharraf returns from his current foreign tour while induction of F-17 Thunder jets in the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will begin by mid of next year.

“Initially, 150 F-17 Thunder jets will be inducted in the PAF,” Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed told The News in an exclusive chat. “The testing of avionics and weaponry of this aircraft is going on successfully,” he said.

The PAF chief said the F-17 Thunder jets, which are being manufactured jointly by China and Pakistan, would gradually replace other fighter aircraft of the PAF and Pakistan would also export these modern jets to friendly countries because such a modern aircraft is not available in the market at such a low price. He said that when the president returns from abroad, the US offer of F-16 jets and an agreement to acquire this aircraft would be considered under the guidance of General Musharraf and a final decision would be taken with his approval.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood said that the F-16 jets Pakistan is going to acquire now would be more modern than the Falcon aircraft currently being flown by the PAF. “Keeping in view the defence needs of the country, we are going to purchase the aircraft that can counter the capabilities of our adversary,” he remarked. “

These used aircraft will be fitted with the latest avionics and weaponry,” he added.

The PAF chief reiterated that Pakistan has no offensive ambitions but the Pakistan Air Force is fully capable of foiling nefarious designs of an enemy. He said the officers and airmen of the PAF are fully committed to the security of the country’s aerial frontiers. He said the PAF, which is considered one of the best air powers of the world, is always busy in professional training to meet the challenges of a war.

He said the PAF now has seven woman pilots, who have the world-class professional expertise.

Are there any sorts of measures possible to avoid US backing out of the deal like they did last time? is it even possible? Papar, Ink and Signatures dont count!

It is not possible to get any such cast iron guarantees. I think Pakistan’s assessment is that the U.S. will not do the same again. Even so they are being cautious – hence the drastic reduction in number of new F-16’s being considered – and simultaneous negotiations for the J10. If the F-16’s do hit hurdles they will simply aquire larger numbers of the – by then – in service J10. Through this strategy they aim to avoid the all eggs in one basket scenario that effected them so badly last time.

CAT, the LCA & Arjun were never intended for exports in specific- they are basically local designs for specific local requirements and local industry, though they may be offered if a market exists, post development etc and if local services dont object (their needs are met adequately first). The Brahmos is a better example, its meant for local purchase and exports.

But visit Pakdef for instance and there are many many claims of “inside knowledge” about Al Khalids being exported to Saudi Arabia or Bangladesh from God knows when. So its a fair point to refer to these. Plus, as regards affordable and in large numbers, only some 150-300 odd Al Khalids have been mentioned, that seems like a very limited production run to amortize a new tank (Norinco MBT 2000).

Besides the comparison is false, since the Al-Khalid, F-22P and JF-17 are license production programs, not ab-initio design and develop ones from the Pak side, so while they will give some exposure to Pak in building stuff, long term -the spinoffs are not good enough to develop an entire industry, which requires you to have multiple R&D programs. After all, how many Pak RWRs exist, despite license produced Chinese ones or Radars despite license producing/assembling Fiar Grifos for the f-7s. So the comparison is apples to oranges. Besides, the issue is about the AK, JF-17, F-22P – why bring up the neighbours which usually leads to flames anyways?

You seem to be able to grasp perfectly how the LCA and Arjun are basicly designs for local requirements and industry – with exports as a bonus if they come along – but unable to apply the same to the JF-17 and Al-Khalid.

If it is posts on Pakdef that you want to question – would it not make more sense to question them on that forum.

With regard to the 150-300 Al-Khalids – production / induction is ongoing – just because this quantity is the initial production does not mean the tank is not going to be aquired in ‘large numbers’. Any updates on how many thousand Arjuns are being ordered by the Indian army?

Apparently its not enough that the indian “lobby” here that has managed to get most of the Pakistani posters out of keymag now is fully targetting other posters . Golden dragen has been one of the best posters on keymag and it is shameful to see how all the indians with western nicks coming here to insult him. The leve l of these ppl can be clearly seen in the kind of language they use.

I would have to agree that Golden Dragon has been a longstanding and valuable member of this forum – to my knowledge he does not go looking for a fight on Indian threads – and I have often found him advising other members not to respond to provocation on PLAAF / PAF threads. I didn’t spot what he did to be attacked as a flamer on this thread – perhaps I missed something.

Back to topic – In my opinion the J10 is a crucial part of the PAF’s future acuisition strategy. While in terms of weapons package etc the type may well not be a mature system – early induction and familiaristion with the type will give PAF an excellent high end fighter bomber for the future which will grow in capability and number as time goes on. It also gives the PAF a valuable back-up in case the F-16 programe is stalled for any reason. If the F-16’s are blocked it will accelerate induction of the J10 – induction and familiarisation of which will already be underway – to compensate.

While the F-16’s are highly valued and desireable – the PAF is trying to ensure that it maintains minimum detterence regardless of what Washington may or may not do. Once bitten twice shy I guess. It is in this context that I read Pakistan’s simultaneos decision to reduce the number of CD versions requested and authorise the PAF to open negotiations for 36 J10’s.

I continue to be surprised how little you know of this conflict- in fact I am presently wondering whether it is even worth proceeding with this..

Heard of jamming? Yes, the Indian EW ops were aimed at blanking out your PAFs radar network. At Kargil, the alt differential between a mountain peak and a fighters ingress route was often less than 10 k feet and would dip to 5k feet. Which brought fighters into MANPAD range. Obviously the IAF didnt want this, and sought to find new vectors to hammer your troops…err militants..the ironic part was that many terrain features on your sides were not occupied by AD detachments..whereas the forward deployed units deep into IA territory were ready..

The IAF did this on many occasions. Formations with escorts (A2A) and EW assets were deployed and used..

The PAF could not intervene.

What should really strike home for you is the fact that the IAF was hammering PA positions and your PAF watched- why? Were the people attacked expendable? Why no aim at intervention, tryng to score a quick couple of kills and then trumpet it as a PR victory? Think..

Actually the Indian version of events is that we were very well behaved and didnt cross the LOC. Food for public consumption and international lobbying.

If there were Indian troops inside Pakistan, and they were attacked by the PAF, IAF would be there. Period.
The fact is that at Kargil, your boys werent. That they werent, is partly because they were unprepared. So if they “chickened out of a fight”- your words not mine, that was a significant factor.

The biggest problem for Pakistan is your army centricity and utter lack of any practical joint ops..the PAF was kept out of the loop in Kargil..not that they could have done much otherwise, but still…the Navy didnt keep them aware of the Atlantique mission..

Hence each of your service fights its own battles and suffers losses piecemeal without adequate support from the others.

Can’t wait for you to supply numerous independent sources that confirm that the IAF went over the LOC on numerous occasions – for reasonable periods (not just a quick over the line and back into safe Indian airspace) and the PAF allowed them to do so – without challenge.

Let me repeat – when IAF was bombing only its own territory – the PAF could not intervene — diplomatic pressure and fear of escalation cannot be egnored. Why do you think that India repeatedly made statements saying that it was not and would go over the LOC – same reasons. But then agian I’m sure you know what ‘realy’ happened.

I said you are full of it, because in this case you indeed are when you go about talking about something which you clearly know very little.

The IAF did cross the LOC on occasion, BUT, in the case of Nachiketa and Ahuja (Mig21) both, they were firmly on the Indian side. And you are indeed dissembling when you implied that Nachiketa (Mig-27)’s loss was “hidden”- it wasnt, there was a comprehensive after action report on the incident, all the way to an examination of the flameout conditions (distributed to pilots to avoid the same happening to others, disturbed airflow at thin air/ high alt meant issues for a strike fighter designed for low level flying).

Secondly, your bombast apart about the PAF not intervening & the IAF being lucky, the fact is that the IAF did cross and the PAF shied away.

Go ahead, ask your own AF..which is why I also gave you a specific instance!

Tiger Hill is indeed in Indian Airspace, but what makes you think that the best way to approach Tiger Hill was from the Indian side, to achieve surprise AND not overfly those portions of Indian territory, which at the time had PAF soldiers squatting on them with Stingers!

This alone shows that you are clearly unaware of this incident, and probably of all the others as well..

Basically, it may really surprise you, but the PAF was in a pathetic stage at Kargil..it was not uncommon for the IAF to field huge escort packages anticipating opposition given what they were going to do, only to see that the PAF was notably absent! 😮

However, the IAF pilots dont blame the PAF -they are charitable for this no show (:p) & just point out that the PAF’s readiness issues and serviceability concerns (Mush had not informed the PAF about Kargil plan, they had no time to get ready), plus lack of tech (no BVR), meant they were at a severe disadvantage, and hence held off..

Today, it might be a different case & PAF may come out to fight, but during Kargil, even IAF was taken aback by utter lack of PAF response bar a few probing incidents where the IAFs escort tactics held.

Have a nice day! 🙂

Give me a break! Indian territory had pakistani soldiers squatting with Stingers – so despite the target being in Indian territory the IAF flew over Pakistani airspace :p to achieve surprise at that :p – did they not worry about Pakistani radars picking them up — and what were the pakistani soldiers in pakistans territory that they were flying over carrying – flowers – instead of stingers. Was this special manouvre of flying over enemy space to bomb your own territory just for Tiger Hill or for all the missions flown?

This may well be the Indian version of events – excuse me for being a little sceptical.
All the areas bombed by the IAF were in Indian Territory – the PAF going to defend those targets would have been a clear act of aggression and agravated many fold the existing diplomatic pressure – hence PAF defended its airspace and did not go any further. If PAF went and bombed its side of LOC into the stone age – would it be justified in claiming that the IAF had chickened out of a fight?

Have a nice day!

Nope the plane that was shot down was in POK side. Of course there was no confrontation with PAf, thats the whole point PAF just chickened out. The J-10 is crap because the pakistanis are not asking for chinese avionics in JF-17 are they? They still want italian/ french/ swedish stuff in it. Feel free to believe what you will but i think most people know J-10 would be hardly any match for F-16 MLU, let alone gripen.

I didn’t say it was shot down on Indian side!?? I don’t think you read / understood my post.

As for the rest of your comments – hardly a basis for calling the J10 ‘rubbish’. India got French avionics for its Su-30’s – by your logic they would also become ‘crap’ as a result??