CAT1Let’s put it this way. If I am a decent college baseball player looking to get drafted. And I think the best I can get drafted is the 3rd round. If I get a phone call from the Yankees saying that they drafted me in the 3rd round, that would be what I want to hear and I would likely believe that. If I get a call from the Nationals saying I’m drafted first overall, I would find that too unrealistic and would think it’s a gag.
Now, can you see my argument with PAF fanboys and 5th gen aircraft? If you can’t, then I obviously can’t have a logical debate with you.
As for JF-17, you can’t seem to grasp the concept of “what you think PLAAF should do” and “what PLAAF really did”. If PAF think PLAAF should buy JF-17, that’s one thing. If PAF says PLAAF is buying JF-17, that’s a whole different issue.
You compare Eagle Hannan to the former Iraqi Foriegn minister and then agree with the points he makes. He says Plaaf ‘will’ induct the JF-17 – you say Plaaf ‘will’ induct the JF-17 — He says PAF is playing no role in the 5th Gen programme – you say PAF is playing no role in the 5th gen programme — and you are trying to have a ‘logical debate’??
I repeat ‘How about just listing all of his outrageous – earth shattering claims on ‘contention’ points in favour of PAF fanboys?’ so I can understand your ‘logic’ on why he is equivalant to the former Iraqi foriegn minister.
CAT1There has never been any hint anywhere that PAF is currently involved with China’s 5th gen project. I see plenty of speculation about getting J-10B and improved version of JF-17, but nobody is thinking PAF is involved with China’s 5th gen project. So, does PAF fanboys want to believe it? yes. But do they have realistic hopes for it? no.
So how is that different from the rest? On any point of possible contention, everything is on the side of what PAF fanboys would want to believe.
I’ve been very clear that my stated opinion is my preference and he is actually stating that it will happen for sure when there have been no real evidence that PLAAF will induct JF-17 for sure. Now, if I make a comment saying that something will happen for sure with no proof, that would make that kind of comment “wishful thinking”.
I believe the partnership is between CAC and PAF, not PLAAF and PAF. CAC is not getting any funding from PLA on JF-17. If there is any new fighter jets developed for PLAAF, they’d have to go through the consistent process of testing out in limited numbers at CFTE until the aircraft is ready for induction into service. That process takes at least a couple of years as you can see with the J-10B and J-11B projects. If PLAAF has already made the decision, you’d seen JF-17s getting a domestic designation and test flying at CFTE already, but we have not seen that.
Now, let me give you what I currently understand is the situation with JF-17 and PLAAF. Take it anyway you want to. There is a need in China to replace most of the 2nd generation aircraft. At the same time, PLAAF does not have enough funding to replace all these regiments with J-10 or J-11s. It’s not just the procurement cost but also the cost of training and maintaining J-10/11s. Therefore, PLAAF needs a much cheaper fighter jet to replace the less important regiments. PLAAF cannot accept JF-17 at its current configurations to PAF because they are too expensive. They are paying $25 million per J-10 and still cannot replace every regiment with it. If JF-17 is $15 to $20 million, then it’s not going to be cheap enough. So, they are going to have to develop a PLAAF version of JF-17 or a new fighter based on JF-17 or something else that is going to be far simpler. You know, with less capable radar, less advanced avionics, less payload and less multi-role capability. Most importantly, this fighter jet would have to use domestically produced engine like WS-13 to keep the cost down. A lot of J-7/8 regiments will need to be replaced in the coming years, so they’d have to come out with this design or disband those regiments. And when this program really starts up, we will see it getting tested at CAC and then CFTE. These things take time to develop. I will just continue to wait for the photos.
So now the goal post has moved from Eagle Hannan saying everything that Paf fanboys want to hear — to him applying this only to things which are ‘realistic’. Was the former Iraqi foriegn minister (as you compared him to ) this ‘realistic’?
I do not see how what he said about JF-17 is inconsistant with what you have said. How about just listing all of his outrageous – earth shattering claims on ‘contention’ points in favour of PAF fanboys?
CAT1PAF JF-17s will be escorting Chinese PM the minute his plane enters Pakistani airspace.
PS: In addition, reflecting on the A-Darter, I think it will give the JF-17s a real punch against anything India throws at it.
Now that would be a wonderfull sight. Many years ago – I recall F-16’s escourting Chinese leaders in Pakistan’s airspace — good to see Jf-17’s take over that task.
CAT1If he actually said PAF was heading up China’s 5th generation project, the statement would be so laughable, that no one in their right mind could take it seriously.
because there is no such confirmation from Chinese sources that this is definitive. Does PAF official know more about China than people close to PLAAF? There is a huge different between whether I think something is a good idea and whether PLAAF thinks it makes sense from their strategy.
This is just circumventing the points I made — lets try again.
1. He does not say anything remotely enough outrageous to justify comparing him to former Iraqi foriegn minister. In fact he makes some negative points like the example I gave. You say that he only says what PAF fanboys want to hear — tell me do PAF fanboys want to hear that the PAF has nothing to offer China’s 5th gen project??
2. How is him saying – and PAF officials telling him that the PLAAF will induct JF-17’s any different from you saying the same thing in a previous post already quoted? You have stated that you believe the same – so why is them saying it such a concern?? You can say that the PLAAF ‘will’ induct this fighter but when they say that the PLAAF ‘will’ induct this fighter — they are former iraqi foriegn ministers just telling PAF fanboys what they want to hear??
I don’t recall saying that PAF officials know more about China than ‘people close to PLAAF’ — but I think that if PAF officials say something about there 50/50 partnership project you can be pretty confident that they know what they are talking about. As for ‘people close to PLAAF’ – well depends on who they are and how ‘close’ they are in reality.
CAT1If he is truly real and is relaying what the PAF officials are thinking, that is an even more worrying situation. There are a lot of problems in different Chinese military aviation projects, I can tell you that. I spend all day on SDF trying to lower the expectations of the fanboys. I don’t know what AVIC1 or PLA is telling PAF, but I can only go by what I see in the domestic projects and the problems they are seeing. And let’s just say the stuff that this Eagle Hannan guy saying is way too optimistic.
Just picking one example, he says that PLAAF will definitely buy JF-17. Pakistani fanboys have spent so much time on different forums trying to convince me that PLAAF will buy JF-17. Now, I personally think that they should and will buy JF-17, but none of the places I usually get my information from has indicated that this is final. And most importantly, we have not seen CAC producing any variants of JF-17 yet to be tested for PLA like we saw with J-10B, J-11B and J-11BS in the past few years.
So, if PAF thinks the same way this guy does and can only see the positives and none of the negatives, then there are serious problems.
Is it that he is seeing positives only -or you are seeing positives only? Why not pick out his question about 5TH generation fighter? Where he confirms that PAF is playing no part whatsoever in the project because they have nothing to offer —– does that sound like a fanboy or as you describe him equivalant of ‘former Iraqi information minister’. Surely for that description to be a true reflection he would have been saying that the PAF was heading up China’s 5th generation project??No?? Then perhaps your concerns would be more understandable.
As for him saying and the PAF guys he spoke to saying that the PLAAF will buy the JF-17 —- you in your own post say that ‘ I personaly think that they should and will buy JF-17’ but when he says it and PAF guys say it you have a major issue with this? You suddenly think there are major problems because this guy and PAF guys he is talking to ‘only see the positives?
CAT1More pics from the show………
CAT1Agile little bird with looks to kill!
CAT1The best pic………….
CAT1I’ve no idea why my post was deleted. I’ll ask again.
is pakistan buying (or planning to buy) some weapons from any non-US source ?
errr…………China – just their biggest supplier.
CAT1You got it Showtime! Thats why you see posts like ‘apparantly officials’ would not allow an ‘uncertified’ fighter to fly and Pac / Catic ‘could not afford’ the insurance —- and when you ask for official sources to backup these statements – none are forthcoming.
Couple more pics from Red Flag — credit to Airbus101 @ pakdef
CAT1It was on PakDef also. Even after the Farnborough website put JF-17 under the static list (and I posted it here), the pshamim person and others were claiming otherwise that JF-17 is going to fly. Even the Pak High Commission iisued a contradictory statement that it is going to fly. I remember Arrows telling me he’d go with the Pak High Commission instead, and gleefully pointed out a rider in the Farnborough’s site, that said flight schedules may change. But that didn’t happen and JF-17 remained static.
If PAF did not choose to fly it, then why is the Pak High Commission silent ? As I’ve said twice earlier it has some explaining to do (any reason like PAF’s own request, no insurance, or whatever).
I think you miss the context of my post – which was responding to what Kramer had said in previous posts. I’m not here to defend what was on Pakdef or what the high Commisioner said or what other posters told you – take it up with them.
Nobody knows for sure – why they chose not to fly – like everyone else you will have to wait until there is an official source for the reason.
The point is the fighter was at Farnborough and got huge positive attention / coverage – thats the important part.
CAT1where’s Mr CAT now ? :rolleyes:
I still don’t see any official source to confirm your post saying that the birds did not fly because Pac / catic could not ‘afford‘ the insurance – even Redgriffens views don’t mention anything about afordability— funny how you are happy to accept a ‘pakistani’ posters views without official source – when it suits. Even funnier how you change what he says to ‘could not afford’ as a means to a cheap shot.
Heres another JF-17 pic for you — enjoy!!! Such a shame that this fighters rapid progress and bright future appears to be hurting some people real bad.
CAT1well, the pakistani high commissioner claimed it would fly, not some pakistani member on this forum and I’m sure he had checked with PAF before making that statement. why PAF about turned at the last moment is the question we are asking.
Kramer said that the birds were not flying because Pac / catic could not afford the insurance — when I asked for a source he refered me to a ‘Pakistani’ poster who gave no source. I wasn’t asking for a source who said it was flying.
If you have a source which says they could not afford the insurance — please feel free to jump to his defence by giving details.
CAT1a pakistani poster named “redgriffin”..
O — I get it — you take anything posted by a ‘Pakistani’ poster as the gospel truth – the fact that there are no official sources to back up what he says makes no difference?? A ‘Pakistani’ poster says that the birds are not flying at the show because the last minute insurance was so high – so it has to be true – right?
On that understanding – as a ‘Pakistani’ poster – I’d like to tell you that the JF-17 never flew at the Show as PAF chose to not fly it. Now remember you can’t dispute this or ask for any sources – you just have to believe and repost it as a fact — because I’m a ‘Pakistani’ poster!!
CAT1read the post above..or maybe read the thread more carefully. :rolleyes:
Sorry — there is source in your post that I missed?? Or is there a source in the thread saying that Catic / PAC could not afford??
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