Sigh …. Do not take it literally… Something to this effect ..

Yes, I hold the same view for all US equipment usually.
Strange. I have seen that view repeated so many times in general by Pakistani guys. Why take offense??

‘Do not take it literally’ ??!! You state as a matter of fact that F-16 cannot be used in war and when questioned say ‘Do not state literally’??!!
During Kargil conflict Pakistan had been under sanctions for years — slightly different scenario at the moment – no?
So you are just repeating a concern that some Pakistani guys have raised? How about if I go on the IAF thread and repeat some concerns that Indian guys have raised over the LCA etc — do you think a few people there might take ‘offence’???

:rolleyes: .. Did you even read whats Muns and I posted?? Erieye will be safe. What about the strike packages going in?? They cannot have their ecm pods reprogrammed till they are back at their base. They might take a few losses that could have been avoided.

Strike packages? If Pakistan continues to maintain minimum credible detterence as it is doing – ‘Strike Packages’ will only be flying around inside India.

6 months from now is gonna create a problem, dude.
Anyway, then you might as well remove J-10s, bulk of JF-17s, additional F-16s (apart from the 46 F-16s) … Of these 46 F-16s, remove 4 that are undergoing MLU in Fort Worth, Texas because they will be coming back only by Dec 2011. So you would have only F-16s A/B in your kitty.

6 months from now is going to be a problem? — how about the last 20 odd years?? India has inducted vastly superior technologies and quantitities over this period with Pakistan limited to upgrades, 30 odd f-16A/B’s, F-7, F-6’s etc. If even during that period their combined forces detterant value was enough to hold off a far larger enemy — I doubt they will be too worried about 6 months from now.

Do not worry. I am not here for one-upmanship game.
If my posts rock your world, then I am pretty happy continuing the discussion with other guys.

If coming up with comments like F-16’s cannot fight in war, and having F-16’s, Jf-17’s etc automaticaly means you have an offensive posture — which you then fail to substantiate — qualifies as rocking worlds – you deserve a pat on the back.

I don’t know. If you guys are comfortable with your F-16s, fine. As I said in my post, what I suggested was detrimental to my interest. So I am actually glad if you do not agree with it…:D

Very comfortable with the F-16’s — thank you.

Although, its not place or in my interest to say, PAF should have stayed away from F-16 block 52. What use is a weapon system that cannot be used in a war.

F-16 cannot be used in war???!! Where do you get that from?? As I stated in a previous post 18C/D’s + upgrade of 45 A/B’s was a good option to get some nice capabilities quickly – with alot of it funded by the U.S. and as a stop gap untill a more reliable ally – China – can supply something similar or better.

Thanks guys for your posts :

1) With regard to DRFM : Did some digging on the forum and ans provided by poster Nick previously (Thanks) :

quote : Digital Radio Frequency Memory. A sort of must have for modern jammers to enable immediate deception jamming (realtime). The memory module records the key parameters of the radar pulse, allowing for the techniques generator (a purpose built DSP/mini computer) to modify the signal appropriately and the jammer “plays it back”, so that the opponent radar is spoofed. Ie it thinks the target is at x+1, when it is at X, is flying at Y, when it is actually at Y+1, etc, to make the radar lose lock, or get an inaccurate fix.

Also : On the Indian side, DRFM jammers are widely used, namely the Elta 8222 SPJ which has been seen on IAF Su-30K’s, MKI’s, MiG-21 Bisons, Upg Jaguars & the DARE (DRDO) Tusker which is used on the MiG-27 Upg. A Jaguar squadron reportedly received Support Jammers & the DARE equipped MiG-27s are being used for EW, implying that the EW package is more than just self protection. (It is a combination of an internal and external jammer).

Im unsure as yet whether Erieye will be able to provide active protection for it’s F-16’s

2) With Regard to restrictions on Use : As of i can remeber India has not signed any end user agreements. Indeed i can’t remember officials having the need to inspect anything. No End user agreements have yet been signed for the P-8I i think.

Heres what Ajay Shukla has to say :

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/07/india-had-signed-two-earlier-end-user.html

3) On the Kerry Lugar Bill : Quote :

SEC. 203. LIMITATIONS ON CERTAIN ASSISTANCE.

(a) Limitation on Security-related Assistance: For fiscal years 2011 through 2014, no security-related assistance may be provided to Pakistan in a fiscal year until the Secretary of State, under the direction of the President, makes the certification required under subsection (c) for such fiscal year.

(b) Limitation on Arms Transfers: For fiscal years 2012 through 2014, no letter of offer to sell major defence equipment to Pakistan may be issued pursuant to the Arms Export Control Act (22 USC 2751 et seq.) and no license to export major defence equipment to Pakistan may be issued pursuant to such Act in a fiscal year until the Secretary of State, under the direction of the President, makes the certification required under subsection (c) for such fiscal year.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=200156

4) As for the rest I’m a little suprised Rimmer as to your posts : in the interest of brevity i’ll plainly mention info that you already know :

1) Refuellers have been in Indian service since 2004 and the IAF has been practicing buddy refuelling from it’s MKI’s for a while before that. Indeed 6 more refuellers are in the pipeline and the RFP has been sent out. Has the edge really moved.

2) Awacs maintainence : India chose the IL 78 because of fleet commonality with it’s Il 76’s which have been maintained close to 2 decades. I don’t think maintainence will be a real issue. Indeed they all have brand new PS 90 engines. Add to that the 3 DRDO Awacs on Embraer and an additional 3 Phalcons to be ordered. Edge now?

3) AMRAAM Vs R77 etc. Indian experience with BVRAAM for over a decade. Regular exercises in BVR engagements across various continents.

So the USA is at best a unreliable supplier to Pakistan – Pakistan knows this very well and this is why the F-16C/D number was slashed in favour of the FC-20. The 18C/D’s + upgrade of 45A/B’s (alot of it US funded) is a good choice to aqauire some nice capabilities / weapons quickly and as a stop gap untill a more reliable supplier – China -is able to supply something similar or better.

I keep seeing list after list of what the IAF is doing — and while I’m very pleased for them such lists are better suited to the IAF thread. So India is ahead and Pakistan has to catch up — thats been the case since independance. It was the case with BVR weapons, AWACS, refuelers, even nuclear weapons. The important point is not that India is ahead — the important point is that Pakistan continues to maintain ‘minimum credible detterence’ which is its stated goal — and I believe that it is well on track for this.

The 12 per year production of MKI is from HAL only. The Russian factory is also producing MKI’s which also got accelerated on IAF request. IAF is in negotiation to buy 50 more of these beasts.
There will be more aircrafts retiring from IAF, but the same is the case with PAF also.
Apart from all these the IAF will be inducting LCA, LCH, Transport helicopters, ALH, Green pie, Spyder, 2nd Phalcon, Akash, C-130J’s, spy satellite and different UAV’s, AeroSats, Harop .
This is apart from the various upgrade programs happening to the current service aircrafts.
So the technology upper hand the IAF has at this decade will continue in the coming decade also.

Pakistans stated aim is not numerical or even technical superiority– it is minimum credible detterance — and they seem to be well on track to maintain that.

what the PAF wants and what it can afford/obtain are TWO different things.

The PAF did want the Gripen/Rafale… Unfortunately things did not work out …
PAF also wanted western avionics in their JF-17s, however it seems that the Chinese forced them to go in for the Chinese avionics for the initial batches atleast.
It for sure doesnt look good, that the first customer, the PAF, doesnt have confidence in Chinese Avionics and is opting for western ones…

So yes, AESA integration and availability is suspect as of now.
The Chinese AESA would be top of the line for them and there is a doubt that it will be released to PAF so soon…

Are you implying that the J 10A is incapable of housing an AESA radar ?! :confused:

They had to go for a whole new model just to accommodate an AESA radar !? 😮

Refer above. I’m referring to your suitable counter to the PAK FA as a paper plane ..

Thats exactly what i meant. We still dont have any clear idea as to when the suitable counters to the PAK FA will emerge.
and you saying that “and suitable counters will emerge over the next decade.” kind of gives a message that you assume that whatever the counter is, it will be released to PAF at the earliest ! 😮

If obtaining the best Chinese Technology was so easy, the negotiotions would be of the J11B for PAF instead of the J10.

However, somethings are just NOT an option…

Well Paf wanted Jf-17 with Russian engine and first 50 on soft loan from Chinese —– and they got it. I would say that odds against that happening were stacked far higher than AESA on FC-20 in 2014-15

You need to read up on issues before posting –PAF Cheif has clearly stated that he was very impressed with the Chinese avionics / radar — and he would only go for a Western solution if somebody gave a very good offer.

As for counter to PAK FA — sorry you have no clear idea when China will come up with a counter — I’ll ask China to release all details just to satisfy you – although I think it might be slightly unlikely given their track record.

Pakistan has never requested J11 — If they had and had been refused I would be more inclined to buy into your ‘doubts’ about what China would release to Pakistan – leaving aside obvious and justified Russian objection to China exporting the type to anyone. Why don’t you dig up what China has released / funded for Pakistan so far and use that as guide to assess likely future actions. I hope common sense will prevail.

As for AESA on J10A – Independant assessment of J10B is that nose has been redesigned to house AESA — I wonder why they would do that if they could have just stuck it in the J10A. Hell even an issue of AFM had a picture of J10B – with a caption over it reading something like ‘FC-20?’ I’m sure you can quote an independat source saying the same thing with a picture of the J10A underneath??

Can you please post a link to the Air Chiefs interview ?
I’d want to confirm if he said that its the J-10B which would be inducted … might as well clear up some thing which is uncertain ….

The only counter which PAF could probably field would be the J-XX which however seems quite distant …

You talk as if the Chinese have already approved the export of this paper plane and that PAF has confirmed orders for it .. ! 😮

The Sept 08 issue of AFM confirms timescale- in it the chief also confirms that PAF wants FC-20 to come with AESA – in the PAF book by Alan Warnes – he again says that FC-20 is required with AESA – although source of ASEA inknown at this stage. I’m sure that armed with this info a capable member like you will find required confirmation. Please do your own digging.

I did not say he said J10B — but if you know of any other versions of J10 flying around with redesigned nose to carry AESA — please share.

Which aircraft are you refering to as a paperplane? – if its J10B – which I belive = FC-20 — There are numerous pictures of it flying around – please find on the net. Your ‘paper plane’comment reminds me of another aircraft which was put down for years as ‘a engineless paperplane’. If Fc-20 has the same fate as that aircraft I would be very satisfied.

As for contract being signed again – I did not say this – please read the article for confirmation of what I did say. Please try to stick to what I say instead of putting words into my mouth about what I have not.

Which AESA PAF ‘lining up’? As for PAK FA, two most advanced aviation industries ie USA and Russia took so many years to develop fighters like F-22 and PAK FA, now from which country do you expect to emerge one?

MCD is good enough but there you need something for deterrence. Against Eurofighter you may field any number of Rafale or against F-22 you can feild PAK FA, so that there are chances of win.

As for FC-20 AESA — ‘lining up’ please read up on Paf Cheifs latest interviews with AFM – I think we can trust this source-no?? Currently Chinese type but potentialy western sourced.

From which countrywill counter to PAK FA come?? I’ll let you take a stab in the dark —- its very obvious if you just try— see if you can get it correct.

With regards detterance to Eurofighter / Rafale – I believe FC-20 will be sufficent for this. If you resent my view please read up on the view of independant sources on how capable the ‘J10B’ is likely to be.