CAT1And where exactly has anyone said anything about the J10B being what the CAS was talking about? That is entirely your assumption, and I have already showed you how the same words can easily be interoperated to mean something completely different to what you want it to mean.
Don’t try to be clever and pretend any official in any country has ever said anything that backs up your theory that the J10 version the PAF hopes to get will be the J10B.
China is not developing an export version of the J10 because, currently, the J10 is not for export. CAC is busy working on the J10B and XXJ and that is where the majority of their efforts are going to.
One must admire the degree of logic bending that must of occurred to make the above bundle of statements fit together.
Claim 1: PAF will only buy the best and not accept anything less. The implication being that the best is also the most expensive.
Claim 2: Pakistan gets generous loan deals from China to buy things.
How in the world could you go from here to claim 3, that China will give Pakistan whatever it wants?
Claim 1 & 2 establishes it quite clearly that Pakistan gets the deals it does from China because China chooses to go out of its way to help Pakistan. That is China’s choice, Pakistan has no power to compel China to do anything it does not want to do.
If China does not want to release something, then thats just tough luck if Pakistan wants it.
Notice how everything Pakistan gets from China is never as good as the equipment the PLA is using. Be it JF17 v J10, 053 v 054A, Al Khalid V Type99G, KJ200 v KJ2000 etc. How does that fit in with your claim that Pakistan will accept nothing but the best from China?
Since China is in effect bankrolling much of Pakistan’s weapons purchases, if China was willing to provide the credit and grant a generous enough repayment package, do you think The Pakistani military will say no to the likes of J10s, Songs/Mings subs, KJ2000, Type 054A, Type 99Gs, latest PLA cruise missiles or SAMs if they were offered?
You don’t hear about China turning requests for those weapons down because such request would have been made behind closed doors, and an rejection would remain secret as China has no interest in embarrassing Pakistan.
China will try its best to make sure Pakistan can defend itself, but there are limits to how far even China is willing to go to be a good friend.
Nothing in what you say / assume proves that J10B is not the version of the J10 that PAF will get in 2014-15.
What you do have — and these are FACTS not ASSUMPTIONS — is PAF officials saying that the J10 is available to them (even though you think it is not for export) — You have the CAS saying that after looking at this fighter – Pakistan has asked for various improvements which China is actioning – you have the CAS specificaly saying that AESA radar is one of the requirements —— and then what you have is pictures of the J10B, which has obvious improvements over the J10A, some very obvious features of the PAF specific JF-17, most agree a redesign aimed at carrying AESA radar and you have no denial of PAF statements from China.
Now I’m not claiming all this adds upto definitive proof that the J10B is the FC-20 – but it certainly looks that way to me.
As for PAF not getting the best from China — when they got their F-7’s did Pakistan not request and get a host of improvements over baseline PLAAF examples operating at the time. Same goes for A5’s – look it up.
You ask me not to be clever and then say that the only reasson you can’t give a single example of China refusing to sell something to Pakistan is because that all must have happened behind ‘closed doors’- how convenient.
Funny how PAF getting FC-20’s (J10Bs in my view) is very much public knowledge – using your logic, shouldn’t they have asked for these behind ‘closed doors’ and got approval before announcing — especialy given the apparant long history of Chinese refusals behind closed doors.
CAT1Again, you miss the point and make assumptions based on nothing.
The PAF and CAC can get as chummy as you like, but its Chinese national defense policy that is the only thing that matters. And that policy is to not allow the most advanced and/or capable domestic fighter for export until the PLAAF has something better.
The only thing that will trump the J10B is the XXJ, and you would need to be very optimistic to think it will be even near operational status in 2014/15.
You also don’t seem to realize what makes the J10B better then the current A model, and thats the radar and avionics package, which is claimed to be at least 1 generation ahead of what the PLAAF currently fields.
The modifications to the airframe are only the most superficial and obvious parts of the improvement, the real change is under the skin.
That means even if the Chinese offer a J10 with DSI, it does not automatically make that a J10B.
Hell, the J10A airframe may well have better performance over the B model at certain speeds.
Slap the new IRST on the A and you could well have a better fighter.
I have already given good reasons why I am skeptical of the interpretation that this ‘modified’ FC20 alluded to by PAF officials is the J10B.
All you can come up in support of that assumption is ‘because he said so’.
Sorry for continuing to believe something because ‘he said so’ its just that ‘he’ happens to be a CAS and I think that perhaps ‘he’ might be in a position to know more about it than you or I. What a CAS says is an assumption – but what you say without any source for backup is fact?
In one of his interviews (in book by Alan Warnes) the CAS says that he wants PAF’s version of the J10 to have avionics / equipment which is modern enough to serve for 2 decades and an AESA radar — so by your logic China is developing another dumbed down AESA equiped J10 for export parralel to the one we’ve been seeing pictures of? Any evidence at all to back this ‘theory’ up.
If the PAF is going to buy these things – you can be sure that they will want the best version. China just paid half the cash to develop a fighter (JF-17) specificaly for Pakistan’s needs, they gave them credit to buy the first 50, they gave them cheap credit to buy AWACS, they are bankrolling their satelite efforts, There are plenty of allegations that they have even shared sensitive technologies with this ally — and you think when PAF asks them to buy the best version of the J10 they are going to say no?? Do you have any examples of where Pakistan has wanted to buy something from China and they refused??
Ultimately -I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one – but I do hope that you will remember this little debate in a few years time.
CAT1Thats a load of wishful thinking based on nothing.
The PAF, if it gets a J10, will get a different version to what the PLAAF operates. Even if its the same airframe, it will have a completely different radar and avionics package. Thats just the way it works. It would not be much of a stretch if someone want to call it an ‘upgrade’ for the sake of domestic public consumption.
Your argument is based entirely on words put out in the press for the sake of public consumption and unfounded assumptions on your part.
My reasoning is based on well established and consistent past behavior, standard national security procedures and plain common sense.
Well, you kinda made my point I guess. You are so fixated with your wishful thinking you cannot grasp the significance of a point even when it has been highlighted for you.
Why is Pakistan getting all this hardware on soft loans? Its because they can’t afford to pay for it any other way, so the Chinese government is paying on their behalf now, which Pakistan will repay years down the line at well below market interest rates.
That pretty much rules out a financial motive because who do you think CAC value more? The PAF or the PLAAF?
Chengdu is a Chinese defense contractor, first, foremost and exclusively or not at all if the Chinese government so wishes it. That means their loyalties and efforts also fall in that order.
The PLAAF does not make press releases about their specific plans, but there have been enough information leaked through the usual channels to make it abundantly clear that the J10B is a priority PLAAF project.
What more, there has been consistent rumors that the J10 production rate has dropped off significantly recently, and that is supported by the fact that there has not been a new J10 regiment spotted for some time.
Yet the PLAAF has found the airframes to equip the August 1st aerobatics team with J10As.
Does that all not indicate a pretty conclusive picture of what is happening or do I literally have to join the dots and paint a pretty picture?
You seem to be arguing against points that I haven’t even made. Let me try to join the dots for you.
Nowhere in my posts have I said (nor do I have any reason to believe) that the PLAAF will not get this new version of the J10 or even better version of the J10 — or that the PAF will get it in preference to PLAAF. Yet you choose to spend the bulk of your post on this point.
All I would say is that in my view – and nobody else has to agree with it — based on what the PAF CAS has said, based on Chengdu /CATICS close relationship with the PAF, history of soft loans, history of military co-operation, ——- the upgraded version that Pakistan is talking about getting in 2014 is most likely this J10B (or whatever it is called). For all I know / care the PLAAF may already have inducted 150 of these upgraded versions before 2014
You dismiss the above as assumptions – and dismiss what the PAF CAS says as just for public consumption. Did he ring you and tell you he was saying it just for public consumption or are you the one making ‘assumptions’.
CAT1Still believe J 10B will be exported PAF. :p
YES. PAF officials have repeatedly said that they have asked for various upgrades to the J10 before they buy – and that China is on with these – and that first deliveries will be 2014-15 –this is what the CAS of PAF has stated a number of times -The J10B or whatever you call it – is the only upgraded version of the J10 that we know of – Not quite a ‘Pakistani fanboy’s wet dream’
As for soft loans – how is Pakistan buying the first 50 JF-17’s? or ships for the navy ?- or AWACS? — all soft loans and credit. Perhaps thats all ‘Pakistani fanboy’s wet dream’ also.
CAT1Pretty tough for them to market fighters that take engines they still do a lousy job of supplying.
I would expect them to have solutions to this within thext few years – certainly by 2014-15 timescale mentioned — in the meantime Russia will continue to oblige.
CAT1I suspected that the upgraded version of the J10 was targeted for export……….
DATE:30/09/09
SOURCE:Flight International
China’s AVIC steps up sales push for FC-1, J-10 fighters
By Siva Govindasamy
China plans to market the Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 and J-10 fighters aggressively as part of its plan to become a major player in the global aerospace industry.
“While AVIC’s main job is to manufacture aircraft, the company also fulfils a national agenda by producing military aircraft for China’s political allies around the world,” says a source close to Chengdu’s state-owned parent company. “There are also countries that would like to buy a good fighter, but not at the cost of a Western fighter.
“While China’s military aircraft have been exported for many years, this is the first time that there is a concerted effort to properly market them and establish a support network,” the source adds.
In the past few months, senior company officials have been identifying the military products that will be given the most attention for the export market. In the fighter segment, the JF-17 and the J-10 are the two most important aircraft, says the source.
“Given that the JF-17 has been in service in China and Pakistan for a number of years and is a mature programme, it is being given first priority,” the source adds.
Islamabad, which helped to develop the JF-17, has committed to buying 150 aircraft produced by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. This figure could rise to 300 aircraft to replace the country’s air force fleets of Nanchang A-5s, Chengdu F-7s and Dassault Mirage III and Mirage Vs.
The JF-17 will be able to carry a variety of conventional and precision-guided bombs, and air-to-air and air-to-sea missiles from short- to beyond-visual-range. The type is already being marketed to countries in Africa, the Middle East, South America and South-East Asia.
“The J-10 is not ready for export yet, as AVIC is still finalising upgrades for the fighter,” the source says. “But there has been interest from several countries.”
AVIC is likely to begin exports of the new type – which entered Chinese air force service in early 2007 – after it has finished developing an upgraded J-10B version. Enhancements are to include a modified vertical stabiliser and ventral fins, redesigned engine inlet, a new radar and an infrared search and track sensor.
Pakistan is likely to be the first export customer, having begun negotiations to buy 36 aircraft several years ago. To be designated locally as FC-20s, deliveries are likely to begin from 2014-15.
Beijing could extend loans to purchasing countries and offer local assembly if there are sufficient orders, the source adds.
CAT1Just for the record I am not at all a fan of AFM and know how hard it is to make a good magazine. :p
Part of the problem is of course that AFM is it not truly “the Worlds leading miltary aviation magazine” if they are so dependant on the British market (the reason for so many UK related articles).
Furthermore the personal preferences and “opportunities” of the AFM editors clearly influences the content of the magazine to much (see the overload of PAF articles recently). A more open minded market-approach (and more self-critics) would definately lead to greater diversity :dev2:.
So if AFM is ‘ not truly “the Worlds leading miltary aviation magazine” any suggestions for which magazine is? While it will never be everything that everyone would like — it is the best in its catagory.
With regard to the ‘ (see the overload of PAF articles recently)’ — once again —- the last PAF Cheif interview was in Sept 08 and the last feature ( if it qualifies for that- being only 2 pages long) on the Paf was in Nov 08 —- thats 9…. count them ………9 months ago that we had the last PAF ‘feature’ — it wasn’t even an article — just a few pictures ——– and that qualifies as ‘overload of PAF articles recently’:confused:
Sounds to me like some members specific dislike for the PAF for nationalistic reasons is clouding their comments about AFM in general.
CAT1The news are very good and I also understand also the UK discussions on the carriers. What I found a little disurbing is that every 2 issues there is an article or interview on Pakistan Air Force, I understand that the editor has some connecton there but enough is enough.
Everyone will have there own opinion / preferances and AFM have the difficult job of pleasing everyone. Personaly I think that features on less well known air arms – such as Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Argentina etc flying less well known aircraft along with fresh pics / info is what makes this magazine the best in its catogary.
For the record. The last interview with the PAF Cheif was in Sept 08 issue and the last 2 page feature on the PAF was in Nov 08 – I’m not sure why anyone would find that ‘disturbing’ although I can hazard a guess.
CAT1Yawn
Yes China has made significant accomplishments in it’s own right in this field and they should be congratulated for that.
They should however NOT be congratulated for espionage, theft and outright illegal use of intellectual property in this field (J-11, PL-12, WS-10, etc. etc.).
Be proud China of your accomplishments, but be a little more humble about how you got there.
China should be congratulated on the speed at which it is catching up to the world leaders in this field. It has no choice but to be there to defend its global position and economic interests – how it gets there – in my view at least -is academic.
If there was another power in the world more adavanced than the Western nations in military aviation – is it anything less than definate that they would have used the same tactics to catch up?. Was the basis of their core technologies not taken in one way or another from post war Germany. I wonder what happened to those intellectual property rights.
As for being humble – China traditionaly does not boast about its capabilities – prefering to keep them secret – often even after induction.
CAT1It’s fresh and hot~
This pic should remove any doubt whether this thing exists. Great looking bird!
CAT1Will this included any new information on PAF shoot downs of Russian / Afghanistan helicopters during the 1979 – 1989 period??
From what I know this book will concentrate on the last 10 years.
CAT1Great news ………… Alan Warnes was in Pakistan in April and got some great access. He is currently writing a 200 page book on the PAF concentrating on the last 10 years – out in Dec……..Can’t wait!!!:D
CAT1those smoky RD-33s make it look like they were done specially for the show..:D
I’m sure the producers / developers are well aware of this issue – and will find solutions beyond the prototypes – perhaps using the Chinese engine that has been developed for the JF-17.– Better to get planes in the air for weapons integration / training – with a smokey engine — than keep the type on the drawing board waiting for a smokeless engine. The fact that these aircraft are flying over Islamabad – with Russian RD-33’s, smokey or not – is an achievement in itself and has forced many a would be analyst to eat his words.
The JF-17 looks like a vicous little fighter.
CAT1Jf-17’s on display in Islamabad — 23-03-08
CAT1Recent images of F-16’s from No. 11 “Arrows” Sqn at Anatolian Eagle 2007: http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/gallery/anatolianeagle.html
great hi res pics — thanks
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