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zajcev

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  • in reply to: Fregat family of naval radars #2059345
    zajcev
    Participant

    Any comments and corrections to the list above are welcome

    And now some questions:

    Gents could someone explain me how the design works?
    – it has back to back mounted different antennas
    – such a desing if used mostly on Soviet radar, what are the cons and pros?

    What is the purpose of antennas mounted in different angle like on MR-750 and MA/MAE family?

    Does anybody have specs (all their differencies in the case of MR710M, MR710M-1 and MR-750?

    in reply to: Indian navy – news & discussion #2060379
    zajcev
    Participant

    Try here in the section related to Brahmos:
    http://www.alide.com.br/artigos/laad07/

    in reply to: Indian navy – news & discussion #2060383
    zajcev
    Participant
    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2060402
    zajcev
    Participant

    Heracles pic

    Found this interesting pic. While caption says that it is EMPAR, it looks exactly like Herakles…
    http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/1302007/bpictures/fremm_10.jpg

    in reply to: New JMSDF destroyer #2064820
    zajcev
    Participant

    No, only a superb CGI image on 19DD…

    The radars seem similar to that on 16DDH (DDH-13500) and a combo of SPY-1F(V), “volumetric”, and FCS-3 , “fire control”, would be feasible….

    Better info anyone…?

    Regards

    I havent seen FCS-3 before, but those PAR radar antennas on the top of the superstructure seems IMHO small compared with AN/SPY-1F on F. Nansen class… :confused:

    What does the japanese caption on first image say?

    in reply to: New MiG-35 (in flight) photos #2555903
    zajcev
    Participant

    Actually they weren’t–the first SA 10 site became operational in 1980…but let’s say that the Russians and US has the same experience in PESA…

    Hmm, one can argue that first true operational PESA radar was US naval system SCANFAR, used on USS Enterprise and Long Beach. Dont forget also AN/SPY-1 on Ticos ;).
    But IMHO, such a discussion really doesnt make a sence with contenst of this thread :rolleyes:

    in reply to: World of Lürssen #2065876
    zajcev
    Participant

    Thanks guys. Actually I have already finished the Al Manama class. As for the Weyer, sadly there is no line drawing of the MURAY JIB class. At least not in my 1994 and 2005 copies.

    Zajcev is there a place I can take a look at some of your work?

    Iยดll post the Al Manama shortly, so stay tuned;-))

    Regards.

    I have checked my sources, you are right there is no Muray Jib in Weyers (got 1998 and 2002-2004 edition). But got one in JFS 2004-2005, sadly not high res, but usefull along with few photos.
    Tell me your email, will send it to you and also some my work ๐Ÿ˜‰

    BTW, also interested in those nice corvettes, anybody got some more detailed info on them? Googling is not helpfull in this case… ๐Ÿ™

    in reply to: World of Lürssen #2065912
    zajcev
    Participant

    MConrads:
    If interested I could scan small drawings from Weyers Flotten Taschenbuch (I am often using them as a basis for my drawings), and also somewhere got modellers plans of Al Manana (not so accurate in details but overall nice).
    ๐Ÿ˜‰

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2066644
    zajcev
    Participant

    7seas or others, one more question.

    I still dont completely understand advantages that offer antena with Lunenberg lens against traditional antennas, could it someone explain to me please?
    Also what are its disadvantages…

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2066708
    zajcev
    Participant

    Herakles is an active array rotating at 60 rpm in the S-band (range) – the beam can search against the direction of rotation for longer dwell times.

    7seas, thanks for quick reply. I was reffering to this post, that active confused me…

    Hmm, to your point, mayby simultaneously means only for the surveillance mode with multi-beam (quad-beam) and then jump for few miliseconds to single pencil-beam radar for target tracking and again back to surveillance …..

    And that means that Herakles is PESA radar….

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2066756
    zajcev
    Participant

    Some new info on Herakles

    Find this stuff on defencetalk forum:

    To quote from Jane’s IDR June 2005 issue, “Doppler processing is used for clutter rejection, and the radar (Herakles) is claimed to be capable of initiating most tracks within one second (the first rotation after detection) โ€” or, in highly stressful cases such as an incoming sea-skimming missile, within two seconds (the second rotation after detection).”

    “The Herakles is basically operated as a multibeam radar for surveillance modes and as a pencil-beam radar for target tracking โ€” activities that are happening simultaneously as they are inter-leaved by the radarโ€™s space-time management unit. โ€œTo cover a volume out to 250 km and up to 80,000ft; 360ยฐ around; up to an elevation of 70ยฐ, every second, there has to be a secret, and the secret is that we use the multi-beam concept,โ€ a Thales engineer said.”

    The Herakles has 4 independent reception channels operating up to 4 beams concurrently.

    The Herakles antenna unit weighs just 3.5 tons.

    Gents I am not sure about some features of Herakles. Is it really AESA radar? The number beams generated concurrently seems to be very low for AESA radar. Compare it for example with APAR, its claimed that APAR can generated hundreds of beams concurrently… :confused:

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2068426
    zajcev
    Participant

    Back to our radar discussion, found this interesting document from early 80-ties also describing DDGX and new radar technologies for it (in those times of course)

    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/51xx/doc5175/doc15-Part4.pdf

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2068931
    zajcev
    Participant

    from my point of view Alfonso Figueroa’s posting is very subjective with the goal to show of aegis/spy1 as the superior system.
    e.g. he critizie apar/smart-l only because smart-l as a rotator may mechanically fail. what will happen if a mk-99 fails during an interception?

    While completely agree with first part of your post, not sure about the argument with SPG-62 illuminators.
    IMHO there is low probability that all illuminators will mechanically fail at the same moment. Note that there are at least 2 of them (F100) or more (3 on DDG51/its clones and 4 on CG-47).
    My point is that family SPY-1D/F/K is vulnerable becouse of its single power radiator for all 4 antenas. If it fails (or is damaged), ship is almost blind, only sensors left are short range nav and surface search radars and illuminators….. :dev2:
    Here is solution used on EU AW frigates/destroyers better, becouse if one of two main radars fails, the other one could to some degree overtake its search/track role (not fire control!!!).

    Only one remark, I dont know much about real capabilities of CEC on Aegis ships. Mayby this could solve the problem with malfunction SPY-1 on one ship in the battle group. :confused:

    7seas, many thanks for posting the pics of lens ๐Ÿ˜Ž . Have digged out that Lunenberg lens was besides SPG-59 was used also on land based radar for Nike Zeus missile defense system.

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2068954
    zajcev
    Participant

    On my HDD found this stuff saved one earlier discussion on this forum. Its not directly related to this topic, but there some interesting ideas about capabilities of EMPAR and other MFR radars.

    Author: Alfonso Figueroa.

    “I want to add some comments to your interesting and helpful message about the current capabilities of the several European AAW frigate projects, specially taking into account their sensor suites. It’s very common on
    Usenet and other boards to read how such and such new-generation phased array is superior to AN/SPY-1x, “because it’s active”, even if some times the reasons are obscure or directly unknown to some of the readers of such boards. In my opinion, I don’t really believe that using GaAs (Gallium Arsenide) modules or MMIC (Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits) on GaAs substrates to build a new generation active array instantly makes a better solution than the very mature passive electronically scanned fixed phased array of AN/SPY-1x. “Newer” is not always equivalent to “better”. Let’s see what are the supposed advantages of an active array with respect to the conventional passive one on the F-100s:

    a) Adaptive beamforming to counter heavy electronic jamming. This was shown in the Sierra-band MESAR (Multifunction Electronically Scanned Adaptive Radar) prototype, from which TRISAR/SAMPSON and other
    Siemens-Plessey radars evolved. Through a complex schema of sidelobe blanking beams and multiple subarray receivers a number of jammers can be cancelled (15 per array with 16 receivers). Great, but ECCM is not exclusive to active array technology, and is well known that starting from the first SPY-1B prototype the antenna design emphasized lower sidelobes and improves dramatically jamming resistance against self-screening and standoff jammers/repeaters, together with ECM analysis and burn-through processing (and SPY-1x uses very brute-force burn-through capability). So, in ECCM terms, an active array is doing what a passive array does, with a different technology. But before we ponder too much on this question, we have to ask ourselves who exactly is going to have the technical know-how and the tactical ability to get close enough to jam an AEGIS system out of service and survive the experience, because such hypothetical all-powerful threat will also jam an active array or any other radar out of the water too.

    b) Progressive degradation of system functionality instead of total failure. This is the single most important characteristic of an active array. Since the array is composed by a large number of elementary radiators (almost 85-90% are T/R modules, the rest being simple phase shifters like in passive arrays), a number of them can fail or be battle-damaged, but the system could still function. On the other hand, the AN/SPY-1A/B have only two very powerful radiators, and AN/SPY-1D only one, belowdecks, so its failure is a mission kill for the ship. Great, but how can be that considered a negative aspect of an AEGIS system is something that puzzles me. We shouldn’t forget that if the ship service turbo or aux generator fails, because of the sustained battle-damage, the
    active array will remain as silent as a passive one. Doh! And… what if the technology on passive array like AN/SPY-1x, and specially the software of its fire control system, is more mature than the one on new-generation
    barely-tested almost prototype-alike active arrays? Would that offer additional, realistic, operational reliability?

    c) Performance on littoral/enclosed waters and low horizon scanning. This is due to the capability of forming narrower beams at low angles. Great, but let us not forget that this ability depends also on the frequency that
    the active/passive array is using. I would like to remind that AN/SPY-1D(V) is modified for the littoral environment and for dealing with fast, sea-skimming missiles. We have to remember that a fixed array has
    the capability of changing its beam scheduling/policy to hit low-elevation sectors at will, something that is not as easy in a rotator active array like the British SAMPSON, or passive one like ARABEL/EMPAR. The same can
    be said to higher-elevation sector scans for ballistic missile defence (TBMD).

    So, as you can see there are a number of theoretical advantages on the active arrays, but none of them is prone to revolutionize anti-air warfare any time soon. Upon a close examination, the most interesting ability is the one I mentioned in point b), and that surely is not one that can substantiate the very frequent British claim that SAMPSON is “better” than anything on earth. There are plenty of naval/ground late generations passive arrays being fielded/designed (SPY-1, TRS-22XX, RAT-31SL, EMPAR, ARABEL, Sky Watch, J/FPS-2, Type320 etc), a fact that confirms their capability is absolutely granted in their lifetime. On the other hand, a few additional comments:

    – German/Ducth F-124/LCF Side. We are not sure that APAR-STIR/SMART-L is inferior to AN/SPY-1D, but it doesn’t look superior either. For a start, one of the most important functions of the ship (long range volume search) is assigned to the Delta-band rotator SMART-L. A rotator is prone to mechanical failure and it’s sensible to special kinds of countermeasures (more of its sidelobes are exposed on every rotation). So two of the advantages of the active APAR system (reliability through progressive degradation and ECCM) could be moot points if balanced with the disadvantage of SMART-L. Second, a rotator will never be as efficient in littoral areas or in TBMD (where long range volume search is vital) as a fixed array with beam scheduling. Third, SMART-L is forcing you to have a bigger radar cross section (RCS) than with a single fixed array that combine search and mid-course guidance. Fourth, APAR is very nice, but is working in a higher frequency (India-band) than SPY-1D, since it’s basically a fire control radar. That means shorter range, worse weather penetration and clutter rejection, which implies that your backup volume-search in case of SMART-L mechanical failure is compromised. Having APAR/SMART-L could look like a nice redundancy feature, until close examination: if you loose APAR you are mission-kill due to FCS loss, but if you loose SMART-L, you have your early warning detection and volume search on an India-band fire control radar! Uh-oh, looks like a mission kill to me. Fifth, if your want to integrate SM-2IVA and CEC you have to pay for its development. None of that applies to the F-100’s AN/SPY-1D. (It could be argued that the AN/SPG-62 of the Mk.99 AEGIS FCS can also suffer mechanical failures, but remember that such end-game India-band CW illuminator is not subject to same mechanical stress as a constant long-range search rotator).

    – French/Italian ARABEL/EMPAR side. With due respect, though nice and modern radars, their overall capability is not even in the same league as AN/SPY-1D (though it must be said that EMPAR looks better than ARABEL, at least on paper). For a start both ARABEL/EMPAR are passive phased array mechanical rotators. That implies bigger RCS, bigger still due to the use of a second rotator S1850M (SMART-L/MARTELLO coctel), for long-range volume search. It also implies worser data rate than a fixed array like APAR or AN/SPY-1x. The same problems described in the previous paragraph regarding the rotator SMART-L can be applied to these systems, with increased manning costs to maintain two mechanical radar systems instead of a single reliable fixed one like SPY-1x. In addition, both of them are higher frequency (specially ARABEL, since EMPAR is Golf-band, but still a mere 80Km range or 150Km with dedicated surveillance and decreased data
    rate), and that implies shorter range, worser clutter rejection etc. ARABEL/EMPAR are not even a multibeam radar like SPY-1x, though they can change the beam from pulse to pulse. (No mention goes to the use of Sylver and the need to get rid of the 5″ gun to make space for the missiles!)

    – British SAMPSON side. Again, a much vaunted active array evolved from MESAR/TRISAR/TRIXAR, with all its theoretical advantages, which are a lot bigger on paper than on practice. But… an active phased array on a
    rotator? Again, in order to reduce cost your get worse data-rate, even if you use a back-to-back configuration and sophisticated beam steering. Again, it needs a second radar for PAAMS volume search, with all the implications previously described. Additional maintenance. Bigger RCS, etc. But the most important thing is, we have AN/SPY-1x today. We know it works. Where is SAMPSON and its associated FCS? How can be the advantages
    of something that doesn’t exist be analyzed?

    Cutting long stories short, I agree that APAR looks very nice, and we only got out of it because there were some initial problems and doubts. Also, SAMPSON looks good on paper, but it will take many years to reach full operational reliability. The most important thing that Iรฑigo wants to say is that the AEGIS combat system is very mature and proven technology, with a minimum technological risk and development cost for Spain and with
    a very promising future through CEC and TBMD. Software is an extremely complex beast, and I wouln’t change the stability of an AEGIS tried and tested WCS for a newer generation bells-and-whistle one if the decision was in my hands. The Armada has chosen the best possible solution for Spain. Taking aside national, political, industrial and darker interests, the F-100 and its technology could have been the best solution for Italy,
    France and the UK. They won’t admit it, but they know it, and they suffer in silence…..”

    While this discussion moves more towards capabilities of frigate sized MFR radars, dont forget also:
    – australian CEA solution proposed for ANZAC class ASMD upgrade. ASMD should include CEA-FAR MFR radar with 6 faces and 4 CEA-MOUNT ICWI illuminators, both with AESA antennas.
    – SPY-1F/K, (while made some basic googling I wasnt able to find any info about their capabilities) :confused:

    in reply to: Improved FREMM #2069530
    zajcev
    Participant

    Now where does Heracles fits in ?
    Heracles is a passive phased array radar according to the Lunenberg lens principle. That means the energy from the transmitter is transmitted with a feedhorn into the air inside the antenne and than picked up again by an array of (say 1000×1000) antennes on th back of the lens. Per antenne there is a phase shifter and the energy is given to an antenna at the front of the lens and re-transmitted. At receive time the antennes at the front receive like a normal antenne array.

    http://www.thales-naval.com/naval/images/heracles.jpg

    This picture shows the front side of the lens (hashed blue), the transmitter feedhorn somewhere near the red area. The green construction holds air where energy resigns from feedhorn and comes in the back of the lens.
    (I have a pic from the lens itself, but can’t find it at the moment. It was in a magazine that Thales sent to me. Will post it later)

    Interesting info 7seas. I was pretty suprised that ultra-modern Heracles uses that lens exactly like cancelled ancient AN/SPG-59 (see some info here http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=65535).
    IMHO, there those two radars are quite similair in many aspects.

    Cant wait to see image of the lens itself. ๐Ÿ˜‰

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