I believe it is very much much the same problem than for ours, engine/inlets pressure recovery limits not realy a structural limit since it was designed for M 2.0 and the 12.7+ is the red-lined zone too…

It has indeed be reported that the tail section of the F-22 heats up dangerously. There was the risk of parts falling apart. For that reason heating sensors were installed on the aircraft to warn the pilot if heating becomes to high, so that they have to slow down to prevent anything more bad. AFAIK the tail section has been strengthed since, but as I understand it the operational speed limit is mach 1.8 for safety reasons.

What means “straight to 6th generation”? The MiG MFI and/or Su-47 if they would have seen production would have actually been 5th generation fighters. Which aircraft would have offered the better potential is difficult to say, as to few details about them are known, let alone that apart the airframes not that much had been developed to recognise them as operational aircraft at all.

BTW couldn’t you have chose a better image for the Su-47 than this gay pic from a video game?

Jealousy has no limits at times.
If Stealth is not a feature of Fifth Gen Aircraft then explain to me this. Why is stealth the corner stone of both the Russian PAK FA and the Chinese J-xx. Surely if it was all hype these extremely practical nations wouldn’t have gone for it. The Europeans were busy developing their 4++ fighters and missed the Fifth Gen Boat completely. And are going directly to the UCAV era, Which seems fair. But to discount stealth because you don’t have it is 😮

It has nothing to do with jealousy, but with putting things into the relative and getting facts straight!
IF you would have actually read and understood my post proberbley you would have noticed that I wrote this:
“While stealth is significant,…”

In the information age of the 21st century battlefields are dominated by sensors and hiding a war fighting machines presence away from those sensors poses a significant tactical advantage. That all manufacturers try to develope LO/VLO platforms nowadays is just logical. As you can see I don’t discount stealth, but confirm its usefulness.

What I dispute is this “stealth is a must have for 5th generation” marketing crap, because it’s nothing else than that: Marketing crap!
If you compare the early F-4 to the early F-16 or F-15 and if you compare the early F-15 or F-16 to the early Rafale or Typhoon you will clearly see that the differences (meaning the gaps) are quite similar. So explain me why has no one a problem with the F-4 being a generation below the F-15 or F-16, but most people have a problem acknowledging that the Rafale or the Typhoon are a full generation ahead of them?
As stated, before to which generation does the Mirage 2000 belong, if not to the same generation as the F-15, F-16, MiG-29 or what ever teen/teenski design? The Mirage 2000 was designed at the same time, with similar technologies etc. hence it is of the same generation. Development of the Rafale and Typhoon began when all teen/teenski designs had or were about entering service and that was the same time the ATF programme was initiated from where the F-22 evolved from!

If you compare the Typhoon or the Rafale to the F-22 on a more analytical base you would realise that they share much more similar technologies and solutions than with the F-15, MiG-29 or other teen/teenski designs. That the aircraft are not the same is a different story and owed to the different requirements that stand behind these types. The F-16 and MiG-31 aren’t compareable either, that doesn’t change the fact that they are of the same generation!

While you were nitpicking at PAK-FA, guess out of what the PAK-FA evolved? The MiG MFI and Su-47 were designed at the same time as the F-22 and they were 5th generation prototypes, before the collaps of the Soviet Union and lack of funds almost stopped these programmes (in the case of the MiG MFI it was the case for 3 years). Later on the single prototypes of both aircraft were declared as technology demonstrators. IF those types had been introduced they would have been 5th generation fighters by the very simple logic of the definition of the word generation. Neither of these types had LO/VLO characteristics, but LO treatments as for the Rafale or Typhoon had been taken into account during the design stage!

Stop comparing the F 22 to the Rafale. The Raptor is without Peers at the moment. The planned upgrades for the Raptor does include HMS. Rafale cannot hold its own against the teen series fighters even and has lost almost all competitions it has entered.

The F-22 is what it was designed to be the best aerial fighter in the world. I don’t deny that. Doesn’t change the facts mentioned above, however. And that the Rafale can’t hold its own against the teen series is a bad joke and wishful thinking at best!

It performs maneuvers that one would think could only be done with TVC.

That’s something I want to see myself. BTW it doesn’t match the “turns like the F-16/18” claims. While these aircraft, especially the 18 can go post stall and retain controllability to a certain extend, their FCS usually doesn’t permit this for safety reasons. And I highly doubt the F-35 can do any manoeuvers close to the F-22s TVC manoeuvers. That’s my point, not more, not less.

My point is that you take certain information as gospel, but disregard anything that differs from your assertions as “commercial bollocking.”

Don’t worry it’s his usual behaviour;)

YOU fault, you keep yourself IGNORANT dont blame anyone but YOU.

If YOU offend me, it’s up to you to not offend me anymore, not up to me! Simple thing.

Because you keep inventing it instead of taking the REAL stuff onboard mate….:diablo:

The Doc i already posted replying to your stupidities…

The source. 😀

Nice one, so I have invented kinetic energy? Lol

Best maneuvrability for ANY aircraft is SEA level; simple question of physics.

True…

Actualy if you dont know about the difference between turbojets and turbofans you keep thinking F-35 will be as good as a Mirage 2000 at 55.000ft yes.:dev2:

Never ever said the F-35 would be as good as the M2k or Rafale at that altitudes. Another invention by yourself. You quite often invent stuff I allegdley have said, which infact was never ever even mentioned by me.

AGAIN last ressort personal attacks instead of study time.

Unlike you I’m registered here since the very beginning with the very same user name. Is it my problem that you have/had so much identities here? And what kind of personal attack is that?

SO what? As i said even a glider pilots needs to know TONS more that you do only to fly solo in it.

Fine but there are some “small” but significant differences between flying a glider as a hobby and flying a combat aircraft in service;)

Boy i dont have to give YOU the satisfaction of upseting myself at your level of ignorance i amuse myself of it. 😀

You contradict yourself in the first place.

No you didn’t mate….

I did a little google search and found the topic where this was discussed. This topic was the reason for registering myself here and as I said it was me who brought up these weight data:
http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:8QxgMpP7ywkJ:forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php%3Ft%3D43856%26pp%3D30%26page%3D6+forum.keypublishing%2Bscorpion82%2Bfonk%2BRafale%2B9400+kg&hl=de&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=de&client=firefox-a

Well actualy TMor did and he duely EXPLAINED the SAME than i just did.

Aircraft weight increased with developement time.

You claimed it has not increased (still 9.1t). Twisting and spinning.

This precisely WHY you still dont comprehend a tenth of what you post.

And where does the stuff comes from I post, if I don’t comprehend it?

BTW try to post some new images I’ve seen them a 1000 times now…:rolleyes:

About roughly 2 hours i would estimate since they CAN do it with AAMs and a supersonic tank attached at M 2.2.

So much about reality strikes, basics, facts, knowing what someone talks about etc.

Thunder, pourquoi te ridiculiser sur tout les forums ???

And so much about other french forums users laughing at me…

Yes Scorpion they STAND out as pure FANTASY and utter SPIN.

No arguments, but endless offenses:rolleyes:

No you didn’t you insisted it meant kinetic energy and was used commonly i still have this page saved care to see your own MANURE posted again?

You claim to have tons of stuff about it. Do you want to tell me you never heared kinetic energy in relation to military aviation, especially BVR combat…?

No question here your diatrtibes on how bad they would perform at 50.000ft.

They will perform better below there when it comes to manoeuvrability… That’s what I said, still say and will say. If you don’t know about the fact that your minimum speed limit goes up and your thrust decreases with altitude (with the result of reduced performance in many areas) I can just give back to you what you advise me to do with ANY post:”Learn the basics”!

We all agree you have NO clue what you’re talking about. 😀

Again we? Thunder, Sampaix, Fonk, GlobalPress, Lordassap… :diablo:

I meant flying them BOY…😎

I flew no of them, have you flown any combat aircraft? I doubt so.

Am certainly NOT pissed by a guy who makes a total goof of himself in public and keep thinking no one notices, you amuse me to say the least. 😀

A post before you were p!ssed, suddenly you are not…:rolleyes:

I posts what datas were available at the time YES and also provided them from official sources.

I posted data which were available at the same time from public available sources. Dassault even insisted 10t class at that very time. Maybe you should not just work with sources from 1980.

Newer figures weren’t available at the time, you were just agreeing with the Typhoon mafia claiming “superiority” by TWR.

They were, maybe not in the very same way YOUR personal “standard” requires it. And no I wasn’t “just” agreeing I brought that data up myself and given the experience with weight going up during development I had not such a hard time to believe them. Unlike a certain biased fanboy called Fonk at that time.

Me and other French posters of course, naturaly Dassault and those who have to learn on their trade as for myself AND Dassault you have NO idea.

Surprisingly other french posters didn’t come up with everything like that, instead they found that I was a relative objective user unlike a certain self proclaimed super god.

Basics?

No mate you aren’t even at this BASIC level, you have NO clue what BASIC means since you haven’t learnt them.

Tiring, the ever same bla bla bla.

If you had known this, you would KNOW why WE employ CEILING as a mean to indicate an altitude, a plafond in French; and naturaly you would KNOW that since France was the quasy inventor of MOST basic international procedures including world’s FIRST flight licences, the translation in English today are sometimes a little sensless to people like YOU…:diablo:

Yeah yeah french above all of them like Lordassap above all other forum users… Care to explain why the aviation language is english not french?

We l it made ME a little less IGNORANT; “Super”, no i make no such claim but just this little more AWARE.

Little more aware? You claim other know nothing and you are way above them. Sounds not like “a little more aware”, but more like “I’m the expert you are the whatever”.

Reach for reality now:cool: