Scorpion82There is NO point to make or get, and BTW, did YOU write this?
I’m curious to see a Typhoon carrying two Scalp or Storm shadow with a 1000nm+ range any tranche, any time.
Capabilties; expressed in terms of fraction (Fuel, playload) are nowhere near to be equal for any tranche of Typhon and that’s design for you; Scorpion82.
It is certainly not a question of weapon…
Something else all external tanks including the 2000l are cleared for M 1.6.
They were fully tested and developed as well as ready for production for export customers, please read GIE own documentation of the time…
See DGA/SNECMA stament, ECO was fully tested years ago and the programme is now well completed, some are simply missing a few years of information here.
Well the range/payload issue is indeed true and I never said the opposite, though my chosen words were maybe a bit unlucky. Technology wise the Typhoon T2 is not inferior to the F3 standard Rafale at all. There are strong and weak points for both aircraft.
Scorpion82Current Zhuk radar has 200km range which is clearly Slotarrays. The deigner is referring to 300 to 400km AESA as according to him there is not point of developing AESA for 200km range as it is achieved with current technologies. This is the correct interpretation of statement.
Source for the 200 km range figure for the Zhuk-M MSA? Details?
That was 2004. we are in 2008.
And where is the evidence this versions exists right now? Oh I know, just another guess from you.
Sorry this is no marketing statement. They have accepted F-18E as competitor but not EF. Marketing statement is when some one say We are the best. No one can do like us for decades to come.
I don’t care about what Russian manufacturer XY says about an aircraft he don’t know about at all. They haven’t specified anything so all you are doing is guessing and interpreting things in your way.
Scorpion82Evidence is pretty strong if u look at logically. Why would some one order AIm-7 if AIM-120C7 is available and that in thousands.
I don’t care if the R-27 is better or more capable than the R-77/RVV-AE. Yet you are guessing like ever. 99% of your claims are guess based on your assumptions! Your example is dumb at best and the main issue is completely missed by you, like ever.
U cannot extend ur opinion about Russian IRST. They are using it for stealth targets.
LOL
MIG-29K radar is operational. MIG-29SMT radar is operational. The designer is clealry differentiating between AESA and non AESA where 200km is achieved
.
Zhuk-ME has a mechanically scanned array! There is no operational AESA radar onboard an operational russian fighter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GET IT
Proof is clear. why they want to increase range to 200km.
The boldened passage should be self explaining. They want means the current variants don’t provide that range. Hence this is completely irrelevant for yet and now!
Nope again ur making in accurate assumptions. If Phozotron say it is making radar to compete with APG-79. it means they have high value of that system.
Self praise and self statements have no value. thats the biggest problem with EF.
ROFL, sorry but your ignorance is unbelieveable. YOU WANT TO MAKE US BELIEVE MARKETING CRAP FROM RUSSIAN MANUFACTURERS WHICH ARE “SELF STATEMENTS”, YET YOU SAY THEY HAVE NO VALUE:rolleyes:
Do your homework, where is the contradiction here:rolleyes:
Scorpion82R-27 is ordered many times more than R-77. and is continously upgraded through various variants. So there is some thing it offers that others not.
Ah yes and me is the one who is guessing:rolleyes: To cut it short as usual much guessing, nothing known for sure, yet you claim superiority where nothing is evident.
surely u know how they are going to use IRST. It is pretty accurate
In giving bearing information yes, but that’s not enough for an accurate missile shot. There is a reason why IRST was coupled with small radar transmissions to gain the required range data etc., that is effective, but not 100% passive and it is not useful in all circumstances.
I am clearly speaking about brochure policies. It is not fixed thing. Zhuk-M is 200km with AESA they want to double it. ur assumptions are based on out dated data.
Again I’m speaking about operational radars, you speak about prototypes which aren’t fitted to any operational platform, that’s the difference. If you want to compare Zhuk-A, compare it to Captor-E.
That 110km range belong to 1980s era. Surely it will be between 110 to 200km. It has much more range so airforce prefer it along with R-77. fire and forget does not matter at thos ranges as most of time fighter radar will have to track it untill the last few kms.
There is a small difference between tracking or have to lock on to guide a SAHR missile. Your “surely” is once again just a guess nothing concrete, nothing proven as usual!
Nope. They have clearly mentioned it Su-35 is clearly superior to anything else beside MIG-31/F-22. The same is true for Phozotran. They are trying to match APG-79. u cannot twist such public statements.
I don’t twist public statements, I just reject nonsense (which many of these statements are). Eurofighter GmbH says the EF is better than anything else so what do you say now? Oh the manufacturer says it so it must be true…:rolleyes:
Scorpion82Sorry mate, Typhoon whatever tranche A2G capabilties are WAY lower by design, payload, range, etc.
Please, skip the funny little atempts to prove otherwise you just CANT.
You just don’t get the point:rolleyes:
Scorpion82It can work even in Anti jamming environment. and who knows newer version are dual seeker. Infact IAF and PLAAF has ordered thousands of R-27. There is alot confidence in this weopon. Even for Su-30MKM in year 2008 uses R-27.
Jamming and what? Most modern AAMs are designed to operate in such environments and weapons like the AMRAAM feature a HOJ mode for example. Soo again nothing special about your R-27P/EP.
Some time u dont neet to use Radar and IRST has now alot of range.
IRST alone lacks accurate target data to make any missile shot with an acceptable pk. Let alone that such a possibility is not limited to IRST equipped Russian fighters. Short once again no advantage.
Zhuk-M has been existence since late 80s but is continously upgraded.
Zhuk has existed since the late 80s, Zhuk-M just since ~2000. FACT!
Real figures of Zhuk only customer will know.
That’s the same for EVERY modern operational radar, not just for Zhuk! Furthermore I speak about Zhuk-M not Zhuk-A. Zhuk-A isn’t operational on any platform, its currently a prototype not more not less.
that is ur assumption of what is included with MIG-29SMT and MIG-29K. R-27 has greater range than R-77.
The “E”-version provide a longer range than the R-77, but not a significant longer range. AIM-120C-5 provides a max range of 105 km, comes quite close to the 110 km figure for the R-27E. With the difference that the AIM-120 is a fully fire & forget capable missile if required and not dependent on weather.
Various subsystems of MIG-35 and Su-35 exists but why the radar manufacturers are biased against EF but not F-18E? They may know things which are not available for public.
Maybe Captor is so much better that they see no need for comparison:diablo:
Scorpion82It is part of MIG-29. It has test launches in 80s. thats why the missile is still selling.
t is passive guidance. So there must be reason for increasing range to 200km.
The R-27P/EP use a passive radar like any anti radiation missile, nothing special about that. These work like RWRs in general, turn of the radar and your missile will go blind anywhere. 200 km is the supposed max optimum detection range, doesn’t mean much if your missile has a max range of 72 km or 110 km. which is not the effective engagement range. Therefore no advantage here range wise. Let alone is the any prove for thosr R-27P/EP versions being in service at all and on which platforms?
Radar detection ranges are twice of previous in MIG-29 with using IRST for passive attacks.
IRST for passive attacks? Well at limited range, but hardely compareable to radar performance.
Any evidence of Captor outperforming APG-79/Zhuk-M3/RBE2/APG-80. Some of these were developed a decade earlier than Captor but there are constant improvement over period of time.
A decade older? APG-79 no, APG-80 no, RBE2 no and Zhuk-M no! YOU ARE WRONG!
Detection/tracking ranges and coverage are well known for most of these radars and yes the Captor provides advantages here over most of these radars including the Zhuk-M with a range of 120-130 km in the export version. RBE2 has a similar range to the Zhuk-M, APG-80 ~150 km, APG79 ~180 km. Captor has a tracking range WELL BEYOND 160 km. So the APG-79 is the only radar which might offer a longer max range, but not necessarily at the antennas gimbals.
There is no meteor with EF and there is no AIM-120C7 either.
There is 3 new versions of R-77 offered with ranges 3 to 4 times of current R-77.
True Typhoon currently lacks the Meteor or AIM-120C-7, but no of these super duper R-77 versions are in service either. So you are comparing current Typhoon weapons with supposed future Flanker/Fulcrum weapons:rolleyes:
Phozotran has never considered Captor as serious competitor to MIG-35
Why should a single radar be a competor for a whole aircraft?:diablo: Seriously your MiG-35 does not exist, so you can dream about it, but that doesn’t change the fact that there is no single order, not even a production representive prototype. And the situation is just a bit better for the Su-35 2 prototypes of which are flying, but the Su-35 is still at least 3 years away from entering service and if this aircraft will pose all the supposed capabilities at that date is another open question!
Scorpion82Scorpion,
Typhoon pilots who are fresh from exchange tours on the F-16MLU, and who have experienced Gripen’s datalink or the Rafale’s MMI, and TPs who know F-22, JSF and Rafale would disagree with the idea that the differences between Typhoon’s MMI and the rest “aren’t that great any more.” This remains the area where Typhoon is furthest ahead of the competition.
I think you misinterpret my statement a bit. It wasn’t directly related to the MMI, but to technologies and capabilities in general. Many technologies which were supposed to give the Typhoon a definite edge can now be found on upgraded teen/teenski designs as well, better radars, imaging IRSTs, MAWS, HMDs like the JHMCS come into mind to mention some examples. The supposed gaps between teen/teenski fighters and the Typhoon have narrowed by a fair margin. But as said it is the overall package that counts and that is where I mainly see the advantage of the Typhoon, the aircraft provides a very good overall package when it comes to AA relevant capabilities and technologies.
Scorpion82Any evidence of Captor outperforming APG-79/Zhuk-M3/RBE2/APG-80. Some of these were developed a decade earlier than Captor but there are constant improvement over period of time. Second is missile package. EF dont have extended range missile.
Captor has been updated as well and at the moment there’re no extended range missiles available for any other modern fighter, excluding the specialised MiG-31.
Scorpion82That is exactly what I think.
I don’t think anyone here came with intentions to bash the EF. But I find it absolutely unfair that anyone who does not agree with absolutely unsubstantiated and unproven claims about today’s Typhoon being so much better than anything Russians will come out with for upcoming decades is labeled as flamer, Flanker fanboy and Typhoon basher.
Well crap comes from all sides that’s for sure. One of the main problems is that people want to compare things they don’t know about. It’s not enough to know about one aircraft, if you want to compare it to another one and that is the main problem for many here. The matter itself is of course way to complex to know all, but it is possible to get a deeper insight if someone is seriously interested. It would be possible to work out such issues if people would complement each other with their knowledge, but that is difficult for most due the lack of willingness. I personally don’t see critics as bashing as long as they reasoned, unfortunately they are often unreasoned due the lack of knowledge.
Scorpion82That is some straight talk for a change, casting aside the BS of JOUST and its silly exchange ratio.
Typhoon is afterall, no better than the anyother aircraft in MMI, SA. Infact it has a long way to go before it become a True Multirole platform.
I really like you now.:D
Well don’t get me wrong on that. The Typhoon still lacks sufficient multirole capabilities yes, but it is already quite capable in its main role which is air to air. I wouldn’t say the Typhoon isn’t better in this or that area, it’s just not better at everything (which no aircraft in the world is). There’re ever strength and weaknesses for every aircraft. When it comes to SA and MMI I rate Typhoon quite high. Why? Well I know at least how teen series and the original teenski series MMIs work and how the SA is in these aircraft and there are worlds between their MMI/SA and that of the Typhoon. It is ofcourse necessary to take into account technological advances, but I can’t see any form of comprehensive sensor fusion for example or real improvments in the MMI for most of the even upgraded teen/teenski series. The difference isn’t that great anymore as it would have been when the Typhoon had entered service some 10 to 15 years before, but as said that is true for any new generation fighter, even for the mighty F-22.
Scorpion82You knew it and were just testing the water for flame?
Not a real intention to flame, just show that it can be easily turned around.
MMI, SA, Supercruise Agility are nothing but fancy words when not quantified with comparative aircraft’s
.
Known data, knowledge and what is told by numerous pilots isn’t just fancy words. Typhoon is yet in production, yet in service with 707 firm orders from 6 nations, 150 aircraft being delivered to 5 customers. Something other late generation aircraft have yet to achieve.
What is true is that upgraded previous generation fighters (teen/teenski) series provide similar technologies/capabilities in the mean time, but that is true in comparison to ALL new aircraft including Rafale, Gripen and yes even the F-22. In the end it’s the overall package which makes a platform effective not a single factor. People focus to much on single things only, but miss the whole picture.
Scorpion82Hope you are feeling good, after taking that off your chest.
But dear, did it occurred to you these are not fully developed yet??
But still, SU-35 is being reported for Venezuela, if you are not updated!!
I’m perfectly aware of this, just want to show you guys that your poor and lame bashing exercise on the Eurofighter can be easily turned the other way round.
Venezuela hasn’t ordered any aircraft yet and if they order does it mean the Su-35 is selectrd because of superior characteristics? No it isn’t because Venezuela picks up the best Russia can offer as no one else is selling them stuff.
Scorpion82Typhoon Killer or not, the Topic being “Is Typhoon a big flop” in International sales?
Yes it is, even with Dirty tactics of Blackmail(Saudi) and Backstabbing(Gripen-Austria):dev2:
In serious competition Typhoon is/will be eliminated in the first round.
The Su-35 and MiG-35 are even greater flops with no aircraft being sold up to date:diablo:
Scorpion82“Jacko, could these features be available in the Typhoon to be used in the Swiss evaluations next month?”
Both are flying already, just not in frontline squadron use. PIRATE is in use, but not yet fully cleared, HEA is flying on the ISPAs.
So yes, the Swiss will certainly see these features.
But at Farnborough, Rauen told me that the aircraft used for the Swiss evaluation would be able to demonstrate capabilities beyond those that are now flying with the partner nations, so I’d expect expanded radar modes, and possibly a different FCS software iteration, with different limits. The engines may be tuned to simulate the performance of a more powerful engine, too.
IPA3 has actually been equipped with full DASS including MAWS and GT015 has received the PIRATE, these are the 2 aircraft to be deployed to the Swiss in november.
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