Scorpion82Hi TMor,
I don’t think Toan browses this forum…
To answer your questions. Typhoon has already been flown with AoA ~35° according to an EADS Test pilot. This limit as well as maximum g-load will be cleared probably in 2006 when the type is nearing FOC in AA configuration.
The limited AoA and g-load factor for IOC also limits ITR and STR, I don’t know exactly figures.
About corner speed there’re little to non informations for the Typhoon, but the 360 kts could be realistic at all.
Other point : on an EM diagram, 9g at 350kts give less than 30°/s. How should i understand this ?
<30°/sec ITR? I assume it. most aircraft even don’t reach 9g at that speed. G-loads and associated turning rates are depending on numerous factors. For ITR g-acceleration is one not unimportant factor. Lift, energy bleeding are others especially for STR.
Scorpion82@PilotTHX
what are you talking about Scorpion, i don’t understand, the Dass is an evolution of actal FLIR systems, what i say to you is that OSF have twice the devices coupled with a cam and all other sensors, say me where the DASS Pirate do a better integration???
I’m speaking about sensor fusion, never hered before? In the Eurofighter all data from PIRATE, CAPTOR, DASS and MIDS will be fused together. This data will be processed by the AIS (Attack Identification System) and presented on a single MHDD. The pilot haven’t to compare the data from different sensors or look at various instruments/displays. The sensor fusion vastley increases situational awerness and enables a wide automatization of the systems. Further more weaknesses of single systems can be overcome with capabilities of other systems.
Additionally the AIS also controlls navigation and communication systems and provides automatic emission controlls.
To my understanding the Rafale has also sensor fusion (RBE-2, OSF, SPECTRA and MIDS fused together). The system in the Rafale is designated SNA (Systeme du Navigation et d’Attaque).
say where your captor will point when plane will comes from 10h and another to 14h ??
CAPTOR is one of few, if not the only fighter radar with mechanical steered array which can TWS targets in the complete azimuth coverage (+/-70°). At BVR distances Typhoon could handle such targets. The RBE-2 could do it more quickly, but you should also realize that standard RBE-2 isn’t able to look into all directions either at the same time!
the best fighter is the first to kill, i don’t say the rafale will be the first, i say you that Rafale was developed with more needs at his basement about replacing 7 specialised aircrafts than typhoon eurofighter or whatever you want!
Basically Rafale was designed to replace land- and carrierbased fighter and attack aircraft. F/A-18 could also replace the types that Rafale should replace :rolleyes:
Typhoon will replace at least 9 types of aircraft :p
university of shefield, pls scorpion, there are about 80 university working on doppler signals, Thales is just at the final stage, if it isn’t already fitted on somes rafales, ONERA is working on since 1986…..
Seems that you don’t understand the article.
Scorpion for you the eurostuff is best, good, its cool, for you!
Whether you mean Eurofighter with Eurostuff or not, another senseless adn ignorant comment from you. Congratulate your are back again at low level.
Scorpion82Thanks Seahawk I’m aware of that. This article is from another forum and seems to have been an article in Flight International.
Scorpion82Ok it wasn’t BAE Systems, however it was done in the UK.
This in Flight International today!
Stealth coatings show promise
Semi-active coverings could make aircraft invisible to radarSemi-active stealth coatings on aircraft could make them invisible to radar or even project phantom aircraft velocities and positions, say researchers at the University of Sheffield’s department of electronic and electrical engineering in the UK.
The composite panels have electronic emitters embedded in their front and rear surfaces that can pro-ject a false reflection if detected radar signals. Prof Barry Chambers says the panels can “cancel Doppler signals and even ‘reflect’ phantom signals to emulate other aircraft types or velocity signatures”.
The system works by returning an artificial signal generated by the two surfaces of the panel that is outside the frequency limits of the radar receiver. Chambers says the panels are lighter than some traditional radar adsorbent coatings and can easily be activated or deactivated “with the flick of a switch”, enabling an aircraft to hide its stealth capabilities until they are required.
The university has been developing th etechnology with external partners for about six years and says it could be retrofittable to older aircraft.
Scorpion82@PilotTHX,
*janes, is quite british propaganda edition ever,*
May be and as I mentioned above I normally don’t use Janes as a source for technical data and/or systems informations… Most of my informations about Rafale comes from the manufacturer some aviation magazines (also french ones), from french sites like frenchnavy.net and french people it self.
*scorpion, to be honest eurofighter consorsium released the last pdf brochure about specification, the empty eight of the plane was 11.350t empty and far from 11t!
the double seater is around 12t!*
1.) It was 11150 kg stated in the fact book 2002 and that’s not far from 11t
2.) An EADS spokesmen stated the empty weight for single seat with 11t and for Twin seat with 11.7 t
*i hope you will reprocess all you biased 1997 datas about ITR etc… with the new T/W Ratio, it was doubtfull that the plane could ITR 30°/s before, but today with 1.300ton more it would be nice to reach half of the previous performances!*
That crap needs no comment. :rolleyes: Sorry for beeing a little bit harsh on that.
*uhmmm.. more than the OSF that is totally integrated with all sensors as radar “yes the fixed electronic modes can track air target and sweep the ground designation simultanously, when you typhoon point his mechanical antenna in an angle, he leave lots of angles range blind, that not the case with rafale”, you could read about that too…*
I know about the capabilities of OSF thanks. By the way PIRATE is also fully integrated within other sensors. That’s called sensor fusion realizied via the AIS in the Typhoon and via SNA in the Rafale. Short all data (OSF/PIRATE, SPECTRA/DASS and CAPTOR/RBE-2 as well as MIDS data will be processed and fused together. The pilot sees a complete tactical picture with informations from all sources and the single systems can interact with each other as well.
I’m also aware of the advantages of ESA so there’s nothing new to me. Please stop debating about things which I never denied or were I haven’t said anything otherwise.
About active cancelation I know, but is it operational yet? According to my informations not. BAE Systems is also working on a similar “active stealth” system. I will provide informations I have in one of the next posts.
@Fonk,
1.) I have not the intention to debate about propaganda here or there, that’s simply not the topic. I ever tried to find reliable sources. That’s sometimes difficult but not ever impossible.
2.) Here the discussion about weights ends for me as it’s only running circles. No one here has really reliable exact informations about the empty weight of the Rafale and people like you often speaking about propaganda and “paper theorie” shouldn’t discuss such things especially not if the result will be an ever repeating circle with no end and no concrecte and confirmed result.
Scorpion82@PilotTHX,
it’s a little bit stupid to post something like that you have posted in the public here. My french isn’t very well but I roughly understand what you said. But I don’t care about that it’s low level…
@Fonk,
*As a matter of fact Typhoon put on 1,100 Kg on extra weight.*
1.)
So what’s your point? No one here denies that the empty weight of Typhoon has risen over the time compared to the original specification!
2.) So how much has the weight of Rafale increased? You can’t tell me Rafale C still weights 9060 kg as it was the case for C01 in 1991. Structure was strengthed, anti-corrosion protection of navale version added to B/C and the prototypes weren’t equiped with all the systems now available for series production aircraft.
Even if Janes is not a source I normally use for data. 9850 kg empty weight for Rafale C could be realistic at all. And Dassault state the 10t class. So I ask why because Rafale has been originally designed as a 9t class fighter.
*Possible but it didn’t give them any experience in deltas nor delta canards design. As for FBW Mirage IV back up is one.
Try this and see how much expereince there was in France of the design…*
Again what’s your point? I never doubted or denied that France has good experience with delta winged aircraft.
*It have already been tested and is inproduction. Try SAGEM and Sextan.
I never said they were operational, they are linked to OSF and could be used with the existing unit but OSF is redesigned to its second generation…. If there are any with the squadrons they are used for testing…*
A missunderstanding. However the HMD isn’t in service. Striker is also under testing…
*Is there anything more than a wery good FLIR in it? It is designed and made by Thales, they don’t mess about with the datas too much and i have Pirate PDF at home thanks.
The capabilities of OSF are still higher, these of Pirate are that of other FLIR of its generation… OSF is redesigned with more modern technologies so all in all it’s a winner for it.*
1.) PIRATE is a joint developement between Technobit, FIAR and Thales UK
2.) OSF has two modules if you want to compare technology between PIRATE and OSF then that of the infrared sensors. If you want to compare capabilities then take the whole OSF.
3.) PIRATE isn’t simply a FLIR like other infrared sensors. It’s a sensor which can act as FLIR and IRST! Most IR sensors are only capable of performing as IRST or FLIR, but not both together. And yes the infrared sensor of OSF can also act as FLIR and IRST!
4.) PIRATE provides the most functions available for OSF with it’s two modules. But a definitive advantage of the OSF is that it can performe more tasks at once, not because it’s more advanced, but because it is using 2 sensors instead of one, plus laser-range finder.
*OSF range demonstrated through cloud 80 km minimum and without the FLIR instaled.*
The TV camera of the CIU yes, but sure not through thick clouds. A simple TV camera can’t look through fog or clouds like the human eye can’t. According to my informations CIU identified a “target” at 90 km distance so our data match in terms of range.
You may have realized that it’s not my goal to make the Eurofighter better than it is or to make the Rafale not more worse. Sure missunderstandings can happen, but I recognized that you often argue about details here which were never questioned by me (for example the first two quotes of this post). You can safe your time by not discussing about things which are not neccessary to discuss…
greets Scorpion
Scorpion82About Eurofighter and AG. The truth lies as often in the middle. The RAF had requirements for AG capabilities for the Typhoon from the outset. However that the aircraft should become a really multirole/swingrole fighter was added later in the mid 90’s.
*Plus Rafale can easly do it on dry power alone, C-01 did it during its first flight with less powerful and slightly heavier developement M-88 and as you said, temperature are a problem but it would have affected both aircrafts.*
AFAIK the Rafale C01 used at least one afterburner.
*The first aircraft to introduce this (later operationaly) with FBW/CFS was YF-16, in 1973, and with a concentional layout, then Mirage 2000 in 1978, both way ahead of MBB/BAe/Aliena/DASA first studies of Typhoon and X-31.*
The Tornado was the first combat aircraft to be designed with FBW, however it’s true that the YF-16 flew before the Tornado and entered service ealier.
*On Gerfaut; it is already in production and cleared on Rafale for some time now: OSF is the key to that: It is far more capable than Pirate which is only a FLIR, being designed to be used in A2A BVR, coupled with MICAs and in the future with METEORs.*
Have you a source for Gerfaut be used in Rafales by now? I haven’t found any source suggesting the Gerfaut is avaiable for F2.
OSF have definitely the advantage that it is using two modules. However it seems that you aren’t informed very well about PIRATE.
PIRATE BVR modes:
– Multiple Target Track (tracking of up to 200 contacts searching for more)
– Single Target Track
– Single Target Track Identification (generates a picture for visual identification at BVR distances; Also used for ground target identification)
– Sector Acquisition (search area defined through radar)
– Slaved acquisition (PIRATE is looking for a MIDS defined contact and tracks it if found)
AG modes:
– FLIR (displayed on HMD the pilot can slew the FLIR with HMS)
– Ground target detection and target cueing
– ground target identification (as mentioned above)
PIRATE IRST range: 145 km (under optimal conditions)
Modifications for the future are planned, including the integration of EO sensors and laser-range finder.
About MIDS:
You say the french were forced to develope new terminals, AFAIK MIDS is a joint project between USA, France, Germany, Spain, Italy and the UK.
Scorpion82*Before i suspected anything remotly weird on the Dassault’s 10 ton class/ M1.8 i validated these with historcal/aerodynamics and load of different sources:
Some give Rafale for M 2.1. Just to show you’d better be sure of your sources…*
Even Rafale A demonstrated it’s ability to reach Mach 2.
According to Janes empty weights for Rafale are:
C = 9850 kg
B = 10450 kg
M = 10460 kg
*I don’t doubt it but there is an operational issue at least as far as the AdA is concerned: The 360* of F-16 were of course tested but find to be more difficult to control precisely. Point roill arte a lot easier to turn with Mirage 2000 which is limited to 270* too. This is NOT an aerodynamic nor structural limit but software induced one.*
I meant the range between 250°/sec and 270°/sec will have no really large affect if any in combat.
*”Sounds very unrealistic that an aircraft with an instant turning rate of 32°/sec can maintain 30°/sec.”
Not it ain’t in fact it’s logic it’s far easier to get a high instantaneous turn rate than maintaining one, this is mainly due to the drag/thrust ratio and this is also the case for Mirage 2000, the lower TWR is even more noticeable….*
My words, it’s much easier to reach high instanous turning rates than maintaining them.
The advantage of Eurofighter and Rafale compared to earlier delta designs is that these aircraft have more lift, more thrust and they reduce the drag while maneuvering by influenceing the airflow to the wings with their canards decreasing the drag. Eurofighter and Rafale lose much less energy while turning than a Mirage 2000 for example.
*It can turn an ailreon roll at <> 28* AoA ad from 100 kt minumum in all configuration included max TOW.*
With MTOW? You should know that stalling speed increases with heigher weights and also the drag plays a role. Have you a source for that (even if it is in french)?
*You guys don’t know the aircraft at all, but in your case i reccon you know Typhoon better than i did. That’s good. Thanks for the infos….*
I think I know the Rafale better than most other non french people however for sure you know it better because of your french sources I haven’t. The other way round I have additional sources about the Eurofighter here in Germany in german which aren’t usefull for the most people here as they don’t speak german.
I personally learned french in school and we parents have some friends in France so I was there for some weeks. But my french isn’t very good at all as I haven’t used it missing a lot of vocabulary.
Scorpion82*Internal Fuel Load: 4950 kg = false, this is only in case of customer requierement, indicating it haven’t been done *
That’s not wrong it’s a fact. I have spoken to Eurofighter pilots from the Luftwaffe and they confirmed that load. You can also see that load on a (not modified) cockpit picture and I found a Intranet internal site were this load was also confirmed.
*Top Speed: Mach 2,02+ = ???? Where did you get this figure? not from Eurofighter.*
DA2 reached Mach 2 in 1997 with less stronger Tornado engines (RB-199 MK104D). Mach 2,02 was reached by a single seat prototype (a EADS spokesman)
*Top Speed at S/L: Mach 1,14 = Same here….*
A lot of sources show that, including a french magazine I bought in 1997.
*turning rate: >30°/sec inferior to Rafale by <> 2* minimum.*
>30°/sec means more than 30°/sec could be 31 or 33, difficult to say as this kind of information is classified until now. So no provement for superiority of the Rafale.
Same for sustained turning rate it’s exact number is classified.
*sustained turning rate: ~25°/sec inferior to Rafale by <> 5*sec*
Sounds very unrealistic that an aircraft with an instant turning rate of 32°/sec can maintain 30°/sec.
*role rate: ~250°/sec = inferior to Rafale by <> 20*sec although operationaly it is not always an advantage.*
Measured by my self from air show videos. However it’s often only a matter of FCS software limitations. I see no advantage for 270°/sec but also no disadvantage.
*AoA: ~35° = False unless you can come up with a press release stating that they cleared it above its 27.5* know max AoA.*
There’re some limits for the SPAs now in service, however higher AoAs were reached in test flights and will be cleared for FOC. This informations come from EADS testpilot…
*In any case, its aerodynamic maxi was demonstrated to be more than 30* lower than Rafale at 70* vs passed 100* and 40 kt negative speed. Beat this.*
Operational sense please.
I never saw a Rafale making high alpha rolls like the Typhoon (for low speed and high AoA handling demonstration).
Scorpion82To get something strait about AMRAAM firing
– DA7 released a first AMRAAM on 17th december in 1997.
– DA4 destroyed an Mirach drone with first guided AMRAAM shot on 9th April 2002
– 15th March 2005 DA4 engaged two Mirach drones simultously with AMRAAMs
Known technical data of Eurofighter Typhoon:
Lenght: 15,96 m
Height: 5,28 m
Span: 10,95 m
Wing Area: 50 m²
Wing Aspect ratio: 2,205
Canard Area: 2,40 m²
Wheel Track: ~3,85 m
Wheel Base: 4,00 m
Empty weight: ~11000 kg
MTOW: 23500 kg
Internal Fuel Load: 4950 kg
Top Speed: Mach 2,02+
Top Speed at S/L: Mach 1,14
Supercruise: Mach 1,2-1,3
Service Ceiling: 18000 m
Initional Climbe Rate: 315 m/sec
Climb to 12800 m: 1,5 min
Climb to 11000 m/Acceleration to Mach 1,6: <2,5 min
Acceleration Mach 0,3-1 at S/L: <30 sec
Acceleration Mach 0,8-1,2 at Tropospause: 40 sec
Acceleration Mach 0,8-1,4 at Tropospause: 62 sec
G-Load: -3 g to +9 g
g-acceleration: 15 g/sec
instanous turning rate: >30°/sec
sustained turning rate: ~25°/sec
role rate: ~250°/sec
AoA: ~35°
Takeoff distance: 300 m (AA)
Time to Lift of from Break release: 5 sec
Landing Distance: 500 m
Combat Radius
Lo-Lo-Lo Attack: 601 km
Hi-Lo-Hi Attack: 1389 km
10 min CAP: 1389 km
3 h CAP: 185 km
Range (internal fuel only): 2600 km
ferry range (2 drop tanks): 3700 km
Eurojet EJ-200:
Lenght: 4,00 m
Diameter: 0,74 m
Weight: ~1000 kg
Bypass Ratio: 0,4:1
Pressure Ratio: 26:1
Fan Pressure Ratio: 4,2:1
Fuel Consumtion Dry: 21-23 g/kN/sec
Fuel Consumption R/H: 47-49 g/kN/sec
Dry Thrust: 60 kN (6120 kg)
R/H Thrust: 90 kN (9180 kg)
Wartime Thrust increasement: Dry = 15 %; R/H = 5 %
Hope that helps
greets Scorpion
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