Most readers here remember that supecruise statement on the Rafale data sheet, as it was talked about here extensively.

You mean that pdf released on the Paris Airshow website? That document which states things like:
Combat radius: 3700 km
Cruise speed: Mach 1.8+

etc.? That was a bad joke and I wouldn’t wonder if Le Grande Troll managed to somehow get a badly compiled doc up there and presented it as “proof”.

At about 0.1 mach more than the Rafale. Whoopdeedoo.

Funny enough that “not being mentioned” means crap when it comes to the Typhoon, but is ignored when it comes to the Rafale. Rafale’s supercruise capability isn’t mentioned in the Swiss report either, so must we conclude it can’t or isn’t worth to be mentioned? Every sword has to sides.;):p

German T2 Tiffies came at exactly 50 mio €, but lack PIRATE and RWR’s. Add this for a full spec Tiffy and the price should be around 52/53 mio €.

How do you arrive at the 50 mln € figure? German T2 examples are equipped with full DASS, spare the LWR and with the Sky Buzzer TRD instead of the Ariel.

I believe that the Luftwaffe also always had a long term aspiration for Typhoon to replace Tornado, and were also committed to a multi-role Typhoon. I think that the Spanish did, too.

The Luftwaffe had no aspiration to replace the Tornado with the Eurofighter before 1996. However the Eurofighter was always meant to replace the F-4 and the Luftwaffe purchased some 88 RF-4E and 175 F-4F which were operated by two reconnaissance, fighter and fighter-bomber wings respectively. Only 1/3 of the Luftwaffe F-4s were employed in the air defence role, the rest were employed in recce and attack missions. In 1990 the Luftwaffe cancelled the planned employment of the Eurofighter in the AG role due to costs and afterwards the reduced need for offensive strike/attack capabilities. Employing the Eurofighter in the AG role was reconsidered by the Luftwaffe in 1996 and is planned ever since with increasing importance.

The best is each makes his mind himself on the raw material

NAO repport – Eurofighter
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1011/management_of_typhoon_project.aspx

Senat report – Rafale
http://www.senat.fr/rap/a11-108-6/a11-108-612.html

All costs are tax included I fear.

For the Eurofighter, the NAO estimate a 37bn£ (31,6 without tax, 37,8bn€) total program cost. It seems to be a very complete cost with the planed capability, obsolecence treatments, maintenance, etc. The T3 is probably included though it’s not very clear (concerning the AESA especially)
And it’s actually for 160 machines, not 232, the 72 less are taken into account and Jackoniko reasoning concerning the Saudi sale doesn’t work (it’s written in the repport jack)

For the Rafale, latest figure are at 43bn€ (35.9 without tax), we don’t know if it’s as complete but the F3+ (AESA, M88E4, Meteor, some obsolescence,…) as well as the refit of the F1s are included.
For 286 machines (well…. 180 up to now, ok)

No, very seriously: cost nitpicking concerning the Rafale program to promote the Eurofighter doesn’t work any way you look at it.

Try something else.

The report isn’t entirely clear about the Saudi deal for one reason. The UK ordered 184 ac 24 of them were diverted to SA. it’s not made clear whether the money recured from the sale is being taken into account. At the end of the day the cost figures aren’t comparable as those of the Eurofighter programme in the UK cover everything from inception of the programme to the retirement of the last ac in 2030 (according that report). It’s still an estimation which is subject to change in either direction. I also doubt that the RAF will retire its last ac in 2030, 2040 is much more realistic!

I said “little capabilities” and you managed to read “hasn’t evolved a bit”… Well your words not mine.

Let me make myself clear. Unless the HMD was so expansive that you’ll explain a difference of 6 million between T2 and F3 by it, most of the upgrades on the Typhoon T2 were about obsolescences. When I’m talking about capabilities I’m not talking about upgrading what the aircraft was supposed to do previously anyway. I’m talking about “N.E.W:
not existing before; made, introduced, or discovered recently or now for the first time” capabilities.

These new capabilities will only come with the T3 standard. Until then we can talk about “improved” capabilities (or fixes).

You obviously never heared about P1E and CP193 wasn’t part of the development forecasts either. Certain capabilities will come late and that can be criticised, no doubt about that and the aircraft’s basic capabilities as laid out in the MCD took longer to materialise in a number of cases as well, but there is more going on behind the scenes than one will recognise visually. Well never seen before capabilities in a global sense are difficult anyway and rarely lasting long either. How many “firsts” were achieved by the Rafale? Not that many as well. We may not have seen a complete package with all of the bells and whistles, but individual capabilities and technologies are rarely entirely “first in the row”.

That the Typhoon is so expensive is largely owed to the uneconomical programme structure, to much redundancy among the partner nations for the sake of having a share at even lowest levels. Delays often caused by politics are certainly not going to lower costs either and it’s not just France where VAT has sky rocketed over the years.

In this respect the Rafale programme was simply better managed from the very beginning and the result is a globally more capable aircraft at somewhat lower fly-away costs (dunno about the surrounding costs of establishing a logistic chain, support system, simulators etc.). But I must be honest, I’m not that up to date on Rafale costs and in the end I’m more interested in the technical side of such aircraft rather than costs. Financial issues etc. are for pinstripes guys.:o It’s nonetheless surprising me how simple minded some views are here.

Ａ：Only the Gripens bought by SAF are newly built, and the contract from Switzerland is not confirmed yet. So the exact improvement for Gripen’s production from the foreign customers is 28 right now (which may be increased to 50 after 2013 if SwAF decides to buy 22 newly built Gripen NG).

Ａ：The first batch of 24 Typhoons for RSAF is directly from RAF without compensation, so the exact improvement for Typhoon’s production from the foreign customers is 63 right now (and the deal from Oman will have no help for this).

I already covered this inthe very post you quoted, you just left out that passage. Appears to be some kind of sport today to quote selected passages only and try to smart babble just for the sake of having said something. I suppose you mean “build” on top off the domestic orders instead of new built as neither customer received used aircraft (spare Austria). Swiss Gripens won’t be diverted from Swedish orders either.

What do you mean?

France and India can look at a well established long term relationship. The French proved to be reliable suppliers and France as well as the French aerospace and defence industry is subsequently a known entity. Reports that the Rafale comes in at a lower UPC were persistent and consistent as well and there has been a number of rumours suggesting that the Rafale is cheaper to operate as well. Add to the fact that establishing the logistic/support chain is done with a proven partner and that the Rafale purchase can benefit from some synergies with the Mirage 2000, that’s particularly true with the recently signed M2k upgrade in mind, which may yield some commonality wrt avionics and weapons which can cut costs significantly. Add that the Rafale offers capabilities right now which the Typhoon has yet to acquire and the potential implications on cost. The Indian strategic command is also interested in a new nuclear strike aircraft and while it is a separate requirement it plays into the hands of the French fighter which is the French armed forces premier platform for nuclear deterrent. Possible synergies with a future carrier fighter for the IN are another advantage. So at the end of the day there isn’t much left which would have favoured the Typhoon.